Barking-Greenford?
 

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford branch and Barking
to Gospel Oak into a single service via Ealing Broadway and Willesden
Junction. This would provide an interchange between the North London
Line and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains could
run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

--
Paul

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:03:02 +0000, PaulBowery wrote:

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford branch and Barking
to Gospel Oak into a single service via Ealing Broadway and Willesden
Junction. This would provide an interchange between the North London
Line and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains could
run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

And not just Greenford. Depending on service frequencies, other
potential Western termini might include any of the other Thames
branches.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9781404.html
(The (old) train in the Drain - S57S at Bank in 1995)

Barking-Greenford?
 

"PaulBowery" wrote in message
...

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford
branch and Barking to Gospel Oak into a single service
via Ealing Broadway and Willesden Junction. This would
provide an interchange between the North London Line
and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains
could run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

This would remove the last few passengers from the Greenford branch.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Barking-Greenford?
 

In ,
John Rowland typed:

"PaulBowery" wrote in message
...

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford
branch and Barking to Gospel Oak into a single service
via Ealing Broadway and Willesden Junction. This would
provide an interchange between the North London Line
and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains
could run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

This would remove the last few passengers from the Greenford branch.

I think you need to explain why you think that extending the service from
Greenford beyond Ealing Broadway will result in passengers not using the
Greenford Branch.


Bob

Barking-Greenford?
 

In article ,
John Rowland wrote:
"PaulBowery" wrote in message
...

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford
branch and Barking to Gospel Oak into a single service
via Ealing Broadway and Willesden Junction. This would
provide an interchange between the North London Line
and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains
could run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

This would remove the last few passengers from the Greenford branch.

Why would this be ? Sounds like a very good idea to me. It would provide
a much needed link between the GWML and the North london line. Of course
the service should really be extended north of Greenford to South or West
Rusilip to provide a connection with the Chiltern Line as well, but that
may require some significant new works, so I guess it is rather unlikely.

David

Barking-Greenford?
 

In article ,
Barry Salter wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:31:02 +0000 (GMT), gwr4090
wrote:

Why would this be ? Sounds like a very good idea to me. It would
provide a much needed link between the GWML and the North london line.
Of course the service should really be extended north of Greenford to
South or West Rusilip to provide a connection with the Chiltern Line as
well, but that may require some significant new works, so I guess it is
rather unlikely.

Surely the only works that would be absolutely needed are the
reinstatement of the former GWR platforms (and associated station
building) at Greenford, given that there's a link from the branch to the
"joint line" both towards West Ruislip and towards Old Oak? [1]

I was thinking of a new platform or track slewing at Greenford (main
line). I think the remaining single line here is the former up fast line
so was not adjacent to a platform. In addition there is no access to the
down platform at South Ruislip from the Greenford direction. Also I am not
sure that the turn back facilities at West Ruislip would be adequate
without further works to avoid any interference with Chiltern services.

The Greenford area is due to be resignalled soon, with closure of Greenford East box, so I guess this is the appropriate time for any track alterations.

David

Barking-Greenford?
 

gwr4090 wrote:

The Greenford area is due to be resignalled soon, with closure of
Greenford East box, so I guess this is the appropriate time for
any track alterations.

David

_Really_?

Greenford East is the closest mainline* mechanical signalling
installation to Charing Cross; once it's gone, there won't be any
mainline mechanical signalling anywhere near London.

Would the signalling in the area be controlled locally, or would it
be connected to Slough New or Marylebone?


* - i.e. not a preserved line or a museum

Barking-Greenford?
 

Barry Salter wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:31:02 +0000 (GMT), gwr4090
wrote:


Why would this be ? Sounds like a very good idea to me. It would provide
a much needed link between the GWML and the North london line. Of course
the service should really be extended north of Greenford to South or West
Rusilip to provide a connection with the Chiltern Line as well, but that
may require some significant new works, so I guess it is rather unlikely.


Surely the only works that would be absolutely needed are the
reinstatement of the former GWR platforms (and associated station
building) at Greenford, given that there's a link from the branch to the
"joint line" both towards West Ruislip and towards Old Oak? [1]

Cya,

Barry

[1] Ignoring, for a moment, the capacity issues on the North London and
Tottenham & Hampstead.

I think the GWML would also be a problem, given that Crossrail would
require the Greenford service to be cut back to West Ealing.

John may have been referring to the fact that the Greenford service runs
to Paddington, so diverting it to Willesden Junction and onwards
wouldn't necessarily be a popular move with the few people actually
using the Greenford branch.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Barking-Greenford?
 

TheOneKEA wrote:
Greenford East is the closest mainline* mechanical signalling
installation to Charing Cross; once it's gone, there won't be any
mainline mechanical signalling anywhere near London.

Really? I remember being surprised to see semaphore signalling on the
Willesden-Cricklewood line within the past six years or so -- has that
gone now? (I know HEx were planning to use that route for St. Pancras
services, but didn't think any work actually got done on the line...)

Barking-Greenford?
 

Alistair Bell wrote:
TheOneKEA wrote:
Greenford East is the closest mainline* mechanical signalling
installation to Charing Cross; once it's gone, there won't be any
mainline mechanical signalling anywhere near London.

Really? I remember being surprised to see semaphore signalling on
the Willesden-Cricklewood line within the past six years or so --
has that gone now? (I know HEx were planning to use that route for
St. Pancras services, but didn't think any work actually got done
on the line...)

There are still semaphore signals at Kew East Junction on the freight
link from the North London Line to the Hounslow Loop, which is about 7
miles from Charing Cross as the crow flies.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Barking-Greenford?
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
There are still semaphore signals at Kew East Junction on the freight
link from the North London Line to the Hounslow Loop, which is about 7
miles from Charing Cross as the crow flies.

The Barking-Gospel Oak line still has some mechanical working around
Harringay. Harringay Park Junction's starter is still semaphore, mounted
above Upper Holloway's distant. I think most of the T&H is now TCB, but ISTR
reading in a magazine article that there are one or two AB sections still
remaining in the Harringay/Holloway area.

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:49:15 -0000, "Bob Wood"
wrote:

I think you need to explain why you think that extending the service from
Greenford beyond Ealing Broadway will result in passengers not using the
Greenford Branch.

The Greenford service currently runs through to Paddington, and I
suspect Paddington is a far more useful destination than Willesden for
the inhabitants of Castle Bar Park etc.

A better solution would be to reinstate the all stations
Slough-Paddington service that was lost at the last timetable change,
and divert the Heathrow Connect services (which can't be used for
through Heathrow-Paddington journeys anyway) up the NLL.

Barking-Greenford?
 

"gwr4090" wrote in message
...

I was thinking of a new platform or track slewing at Greenford (main
line). I think the remaining single line here is the former up fast line
so was not adjacent to a platform. In addition there is no access to the
down platform at South Ruislip from the Greenford direction. Also I am not
sure that the turn back facilities at West Ruislip would be adequate
without further works to avoid any interference with Chiltern services.

Although your other points stand, the positioning of the platform at
Greenford is probably irrelevant since, like Princes Risborough when the
down platform was reinstated, the state of the platform that remains is
probably so poor as to make it impossible to use what is left. No doubt
(like Risborough) water ingress will have caused the mortar to disintegrate
and the the platform walls to bulge. Probably no more expensive to build a
new platform adjacent to the current line than it would be to resurrect what
remains of the old one.

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, PaulBowery wrote:

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford branch and Barking to
Gospel Oak into a single service via Ealing Broadway and Willesden
Junction. This would provide an interchange between the North London
Line and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains could run
to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

I do think killing the service to Paddington, or anywhere similarly
central, would be a bit fatal.

How about making the branch part of the Central Line? You'd need about a
mile of four-tracking to get to the junction from Ealing Broadway; would
that be at all feasible?

tom

--
Restate my assumptions

Barking-Greenford?
 

Chris Tolley wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:03:02 +0000, PaulBowery wrote:

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford branch and Barking
to Gospel Oak into a single service via Ealing Broadway and Willesden
Junction. This would provide an interchange between the North London
Line and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains could
run to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

The GOBLIN has a far greater potential as a light rail route.

And not just Greenford. Depending on service frequencies, other
potential Western termini might include any of the other Thames
branches.

Do you seriously think there would be the demand?

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:07:08 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:

Paddington, or anywhere similarly central

Central? Paddington?

Even Fenchurch Street is closer to Charing Cross than Paddington...

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p11218103.html
(Now just memories: class 501 trains at London Broad Street in 1981)

Barking-Greenford?
 

In article .com,
TheOneKEA wrote:
gwr4090 wrote:

The Greenford area is due to be resignalled soon, with closure of
Greenford East box, so I guess this is the appropriate time for
any track alterations.

David

_Really_?

Greenford East is the closest mainline* mechanical signalling
installation to Charing Cross; once it's gone, there won't be any
mainline mechanical signalling anywhere near London.

Would the signalling in the area be controlled locally, or would it
be connected to Slough New or Marylebone?

Apparently, it will be covered by Slough New, when the Heathrow branch is
taken over from Slough New by a new panel at Heathrow, presumably as part
of the T5 works.

David

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:15:31 +1030, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Do you seriously think there would be the demand?

My comments were primarily about the possibilities of different places
to turn trains. However, since you ask, there was a time when the
service from Birmingham New Street to Redditch consisted of about four
trains a day, and they were pretty thinly used. Then someone had a bit
of vision and started to offer a better service that was better
marketed, with a couple of new stations. Now there are 4tph shifting
thousands of people per day.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9781420.html
(Cl. 504 77165/65444 on its final BR weekend at Manchester Vic in 1991)

Barking-Greenford?
 

Chris Tolley wrote:

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:15:31 +1030, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Do you seriously think there would be the demand?

My comments were primarily about the possibilities of different places
to turn trains. However, since you ask, there was a time when the
service from Birmingham New Street to Redditch consisted of about four
trains a day, and they were pretty thinly used. Then someone had a bit
of vision and started to offer a better service that was better
marketed, with a couple of new stations. Now there are 4tph shifting
thousands of people per day.

Yes, but that goes to the center of Birmingham! The GOBLIN tends to
avoid most commercial areas. It would be perfect as the basis for a
tramway, with on street branches to much of N London, but as a through
route with existing branches, just about any route into London
(including the District Line) would be more popular.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Chris Tolley wrote:

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:07:08 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:

Paddington, or anywhere similarly central

Central? Paddington?

Yes, it's in Zone 1 therefore it's central.

Even Fenchurch Street is closer to Charing Cross than Paddington...

As is Marylebone. That's the thing about Central London termini: they're
ALL central!

Barking-Greenford?
 

"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message
...
Chris Tolley wrote:

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:15:31 +1030, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Do you seriously think there would be the demand?

My comments were primarily about the possibilities of different places
to turn trains. However, since you ask, there was a time when the
service from Birmingham New Street to Redditch consisted of about four
trains a day, and they were pretty thinly used. Then someone had a bit
of vision and started to offer a better service that was better
marketed, with a couple of new stations. Now there are 4tph shifting
thousands of people per day.

Yes, but that goes to the center of Birmingham! The GOBLIN tends to
avoid most commercial areas. It would be perfect as the basis for a
tramway, with on street branches to much of N London, but as a through
route with existing branches, just about any route into London
(including the District Line) would be more popular.

There were people who dismissed the idea of running the Greenford Car to
Padd, untill patronage increased.

Barking-Greenford?
 

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:04:49 +1030, Aidan Stanger wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote:
Central? Paddington?
Yes, it's in Zone 1 therefore it's central.

Even Fenchurch Street is closer to Charing Cross than Paddington...
As is Marylebone. That's the thing about Central London termini: they're
ALL central!

In my mind it's "central" if it's within sensible walking distance of
something useful. I used to work in Traf Sq., and used to shop in
Tottenham Ct Rd. So, for me, neither Padd nor Fen St qualify. ;-)
--
My most recent pictu
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p11858315.html
(170 504 passing Slindon at speed on 31 Jan 2005)

Barking-Greenford?
 

Aidan Stanger wrote:
The GOBLIN has a far greater potential as a light rail route.

IIRC, isn't the GOBLIN used by many freight trains?
--
Michael Hoffman

Barking-Greenford?
 

In article ,
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Aidan Stanger wrote:
The GOBLIN has a far greater potential as a light rail route.

IIRC, isn't the GOBLIN used by many freight trains?

Yes. This is likely to increase as freight is shifted off the NLL
to make room for the improved passenger services (apparently).


--
Mike Bristow - really a very good driver

Barking-Greenford?
 

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote:


On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:07:08 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:


Paddington, or anywhere similarly central

Central? Paddington?


Yes, it's in Zone 1 therefore it's central.

Don't have that argument with Tom, he won't like it :-)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Barking-Greenford?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

How about making the branch part of the Central Line? You'd need
about a mile of four-tracking to get to the junction from Ealing
Broadway; would that be at all feasible?

Nope. You'd have to knock down most of Ealing Broadway to get enough
space in the GWML corridor, much less the need to rebuild the entire
station to accomodate the extra tracks.

A tunnel would be a possibility, but you'd probably end up missing out
Ealing Broadway itself unless you built tunneled platforms.

IOW, _expensive_....

Barking-Greenford?
 

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
ps.com...
Tom Anderson wrote:

How about making the branch part of the Central Line? You'd need
about a mile of four-tracking to get to the junction from Ealing
Broadway; would that be at all feasible?

Nope. You'd have to knock down most of Ealing Broadway to get enough
space in the GWML corridor, much less the need to rebuild the entire
station to accomodate the extra tracks.

A tunnel would be a possibility, but you'd probably end up missing out
Ealing Broadway itself unless you built tunneled platforms.

IOW, _expensive_....


What wrong with running the Central over the Relief roads?

Barking-Greenford?
 

Brimstone wrote:
What wrong with running the Central over the Relief roads?

- Incompatible ATP
- Signal shielding
- Dual electrification
- Platform heights
- Loading gauge
- 1992TS maximum speeds

Barking-Greenford?
 

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...

Brimstone wrote:
What wrong with running the Central over the Relief roads?

- Incompatible ATP
- Signal shielding
- Dual electrification
- Platform heights
- Loading gauge
- 1992TS maximum speeds

All of which can be overcome, especially the loading gauge question. I don't
see tube stock clouting any of the bridges. between Ealing Bdy and West
Ealing. WRT to speeds, 92 stock accelerates quicker than anything on the
mainline and it's only travelling about three-quaters of a mile anyway.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Brimstone wrote:
All of which can be overcome, especially the loading gauge question.
I don't see tube stock clouting any of the bridges. between Ealing
Bdy and West Ealing. WRT to speeds, 92 stock accelerates quicker
than anything on the mainline and it's only travelling about three-
quaters of a mile anyway.

It's not a matter of the tube trains hitting lineside structures, it's
a matter of what you're going to use to get a defective 1992TS off of
the line when it can't move itself...

Barking-Greenford?
 

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...
Brimstone wrote:
All of which can be overcome, especially the loading gauge question.
I don't see tube stock clouting any of the bridges. between Ealing
Bdy and West Ealing. WRT to speeds, 92 stock accelerates quicker
than anything on the mainline and it's only travelling about three-
quaters of a mile anyway.

It's not a matter of the tube trains hitting lineside structures, it's
a matter of what you're going to use to get a defective 1992TS off of
the line when it can't move itself...


What do you use to move a failed D78 on the Richmond branch or a l65 on the
Amersham line?

Barking-Greenford?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, PaulBowery wrote:

What about this for an idea- combine the Greenford branch and
Barking to
Gospel Oak into a single service via Ealing Broadway and Willesden
Junction. This would provide an interchange between the North
London
Line and the west via Ealing Broadway. If paths in the Willesden
Junction area are a problem then some of the Stratford trains could
run
to Willesden Junction low level via Queens Park.

I do think killing the service to Paddington, or anywhere similarly
central, would be a bit fatal.

How about making the branch part of the Central Line? You'd need
about a
mile of four-tracking to get to the junction from Ealing Broadway;
would
that be at all feasible?

tom


Operationally converting the branch to be a Central Line extension
makes sense. The question is: Would the construction costs be
justified?

Adrian.

Barking-Greenford?
 

One doubts the Health and Safety folks would allow any new cases of
tube and mainline interlining.

A.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Brimstone wrote:

What do you use to move a failed D78 on the Richmond branch or a l65
on the Amersham line?

Somebody probably goes and finds a barrier coach. The DC lines once had
them to allow standard stock to mate with Oerlikons, to allow the
latter to push the former out of the way. I haven't a clue what they
use nowadays.

Barking-Greenford?
 

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
ups.com...
Brimstone wrote:

What do you use to move a failed D78 on the Richmond branch or a l65
on the Amersham line?

Somebody probably goes and finds a barrier coach. The DC lines once had
them to allow standard stock to mate with Oerlikons, to allow the
latter to push the former out of the way. I haven't a clue what they
use nowadays.


Probably nothing as methods of dealing with failed trains have developed.
It's extremely rare that an EMU can't be got moving under it's own power
albeit on reduced power.

Barking-Greenford?
 

"Adrian Auer-Hudson" wrote in message
oups.com...

One doubts the Health and Safety folks would allow any new cases of
tube and mainline interlining.


The HSE won't have railways as part of their remit for much longer.
Hopefully sanity will return.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Brimstone wrote:
"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...
Brimstone wrote:
All of which can be overcome, especially the loading gauge
question.
I don't see tube stock clouting any of the bridges. between Ealing
Bdy and West Ealing. WRT to speeds, 92 stock accelerates quicker
than anything on the mainline and it's only travelling about
three- quaters of a mile anyway.

It's not a matter of the tube trains hitting lineside structures,
it's
a matter of what you're going to use to get a defective 1992TS off
of the line when it can't move itself...


What do you use to move a failed D78 on the Richmond branch

Battery loco from Lillie Bridge or Acton Town?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Barking-Greenford?
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
Brimstone wrote:
"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...
Brimstone wrote:
All of which can be overcome, especially the loading gauge
question.
I don't see tube stock clouting any of the bridges. between Ealing
Bdy and West Ealing. WRT to speeds, 92 stock accelerates quicker
than anything on the mainline and it's only travelling about
three- quaters of a mile anyway.

It's not a matter of the tube trains hitting lineside structures,
it's
a matter of what you're going to use to get a defective 1992TS off
of the line when it can't move itself...


What do you use to move a failed D78 on the Richmond branch

Battery loco from Lillie Bridge or Acton Town?

The control systems on a D can be split in half, so that if there is a
failure on one the other can get the train back to depot. Even on LU metals
the need for an assisting train is extremely rare and only due to a
catastrophic failure.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Barry Salter wrote:

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:15:31 +1030, (Aidan Stanger)
wrote:

The GOBLIN has a far greater potential as a light rail route.

And what would you propose doing with the substantial freight traffic
along the route should such a conversion come to fruition?

Using the NLL. From Camden to Dalston track space isn't a problem -
indeed it was once 4 track and could easily be again. From Dalston to
Stratford adding another track would be a bit more difficult, but could
still be done without any demolishion (apart from one industrial
building near the Lea). The work could be combined with the upgrading of
that stretch of NLL to become part of Crossrail 2.

If Crossrail 1 can take over the WCML Slow lines (which would provide an
alternative route into London so attractive that it would enable
boarding and alighting restrictions between Euston and Watford Junction
to be lifted) then it would provide a dedicated freight route from
Stratford to Euston. Linking it with the LTS would be harder (probably
requiring a short tunnel to link it with the E end of the GOBLIN) but
the resulting line woudl not only free up the GOBLIN for tram conversion
but also provide a much more direct dedicated freight route.

Barking-Greenford?
 

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:

Operationally converting the [Greenford] branch to be a Central
Line extension makes sense. The question is: Would the
construction costs be justified?

And which end do you connect it at?

Though a loop at both ends has its attractions from an aesthetic point
of view!

If tube tunnels were dug between West Ealing and just east of Ealing
Broadway, it would free up surface capacity at Ealing Broadway station
for the desperately-needed rebuilding.

There are endless options, and I think a wholesale reorganisation of
services might be beneficial, because
- the area needs north-south rail services
- the line parallel to the Central line is ridiculously under-used
- passengers beyond Northolt are not best served by an all-stations
service
- The Ealing Broadway Central Line branch will lose most of its
passengers to Crossrail

I'm thinking maybe a much enhanced Chiltern service from the Ruislips,
and new Central Line branches closer in: West Ealing via Castlebar
Park, and maybe something heading north into Park Royal.

Colin McKenzie