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Heathrow Connect service
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:32:12 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: The workers are rail passengers too, and iirc outnumber the passengers. Surely it's better to get them regularly using the train, than prising the air passengers from their cars one at a time - especially as there will be very few air passengers, compared to airport workers, starting their journeys close to the places the Connect service will be calling. Or perhaps *everyone* could pay the fair fare (sorry) for the journey, which would be at a similar level to other similar rail journeys and be included on Travelcard validity. I do not get any form of special funding for my journey to work, nor do most others. I don't see why the airport staff should be any different. I'd far rather the service was available to all comers at a reasonable price. As I've posted elsewhere in the thread, I understand (but admittedly dislike) the idea behind HEx itself being a premium product at a premium price. Heathrow Connect is not - it is a local rail service, and should be priced (and subsidised if necessary) on the basis that that is what it is. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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I do not get any form of special funding for my journey to work, nor
do most others. I don't see why the airport staff should be any different. The difference presumably being that your employer didn't pay for the railway to be built... |
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"Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message ... On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:59:27 GMT, (Neil Williams) wrote: I don't see why the airport staff should be any different. I'd far rather the service was available to all comers at a reasonable price. Presumably because it would hit HEx, which is their own trainset so they can do what they want. People like me can still get the Piccadilly Line and the buses. As I've posted elsewhere in the thread, I understand (but admittedly dislike) the idea behind HEx itself being a premium product at a premium price. Heathrow Connect is not - it is a local rail service, and should be priced (and subsidised if necessary) on the basis that that is what it is. It will be, just not the final leg to the airport. AIUI as part of the planning consent for T5 BAA have obligations to ensure that specific proportions of people employed at the airport (not just BAA employees) and of airline passengers access the airport by public transport. The fare levels on HEx and H Connect must therefore be set at levels which contribute to meeting these targets, as well as giving BAA a fair return on their investment. It is in this context that H Connect may well offer concessionary fares for airport employees, while charging casual passengers, and airline passengers, fares which will not abstract revenue from H Ex. Peter |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Masson wrote:
It is in this context that H Connect may well offer concessionary fares for airport employees, while charging casual passengers, and airline passengers, fares which will not abstract revenue from H Ex. On the other hand if employees enjoy concessionary fares relative to the general public, I suspect that the Revenue would consider it as a taxable benefit. (IANAL). |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:02:35 +0100, Arthur Figgis
] wrote: In Manchester airport staff are the main target for the propsed tramway - they assume passengers will get a train to the airport, not an all-stops tram. They may be the main *target*, but I am not aware of any plan to charge different *fares* to them from normal tram users. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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In message
Tony Polson wrote: Arthur Figgis ] wrote: [snip] An awful lot of people work at big airports. Cheap season tickets but expensive normal fares could be a way of getting the airport staff to use the trains. That surely has to be the intention. One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, which serves the maintenance area to the East of the airport, adjacent to the A30. Huge numbers of people get on and off Piccadilly Line services here, and the assumption must be that they are airport workers. [snip] Heathrow has the working population of a small town who all have to commute as there is no living accomodation within the 'town centre'. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:48:14 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: Heathrow has the working population of a small town who all have to commute as there is no living accomodation within the 'town centre'. True. That statement can also be applied to large industrial estates like Trafford Park, however. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message . gla.ac.uk... On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Masson wrote: It is in this context that H Connect may well offer concessionary fares for airport employees, while charging casual passengers, and airline passengers, fares which will not abstract revenue from H Ex. On the other hand if employees enjoy concessionary fares relative to the general public, I suspect that the Revenue would consider it as a taxable benefit. (IANAL) I wonder if it could be done by offering, to the general public, season ticket rates with a very deep discount over daily fares. Obviously these would only really be of interest to people who work at the airport. Peter. |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:50:24 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: You obviously don't commute to work on a subsidised season ticket on subsidised transport. No, I use a bicycle or car most of the time. However, if I did use the bus regularly (the only public transport option) a season ticket isn't as massively different in price from buying singles as I think we're looking at here, and is available to anyone who chooses to buy one, commuter or otherwise. The single tickets, OTOH, are not subsidised as such as it is a commercial bus service. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message . gla.ac.uk... On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Masson wrote: It is in this context that H Connect may well offer concessionary fares for airport employees, while charging casual passengers, and airline passengers, fares which will not abstract revenue from H Ex. On the other hand if employees enjoy concessionary fares relative to the general public, I suspect that the Revenue would consider it as a taxable benefit. (IANAL). No, because as has already been pointed out it is the employers own trains they are riding on. It used to be the case that this would be taxed at the commercial fare (you might recall that LT workers had to pay a tax charge on their concessionary fare cards) but someone challenged this in court and won. So now the tax charge is based upon the marginal cost of allowing staff to use your product, which in the case of an unrestricted access transport service is nil. tim |
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"Peter Masson" wrote in message
... AIUI as part of the planning consent for T5 BAA have obligations to ensure that specific proportions of people employed at the airport (not just BAA employees) and of airline passengers access the airport by public transport. I reviewed the planning permission (SoS decision) and S.106 undertaking for T5 some time ago. From memory, their obligation is to implement a Green Travel Plan, approved by LB Hillingdon. From memory, as with most GTPs, there are targets set for journeys to be undertaken by a particular mode. Just because there are targets, that does not mean that there are penalties for failing to meet those targets! But in this case, unlike some other instances, I do not think there was one particular aspect, or the whole operation that could not be undertaken if the targets were not met. If I'm bored, I'll go back and have a look at the decision letter/legal agreement one day. May well be blogged by one of the Heathrow NIMBY websites; I've not looked. |
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"Tony Polson" wrote in message
... One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). which serves the maintenance area to the East of the airport, adjacent to the A30. Huge numbers of people get on and off Piccadilly Line services here, and the assumption must be that they are airport workers. Or residents of Feltham or Ashford. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In message , Graeme Wall
writes Heathrow has the working population of a small town who all have to commute as there is no living accomodation within the 'town centre'. Nit-picking I know but it actually has the working population of a largish town. Apparently twice as many people work at Heathrow as live in Stratford or Shrewsbury (source: presentation by BA, not BAA, staff to a lecture I attended last year.) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:37:43 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: How many people work in Trafford Park? IIRC the working population of Heathrow is around 6-8 thousand. According to the link below, there are 7,000 in the Trafford Centre alone, not to mention the huge industrial area of the Park. If I've not read it incorrectly, it is claimed that some 40,000 work in the entire Park - making it rather bigger in employment terms than Heathrow. That it was so huge (I was thinking more like 10,000 off the top of my head) surprised me greatly. Not only that, but Trafford Park has very little in the way of rail passenger transport. I would suspect that the great majority of its lower-paid employees arrive by bus - though admittedly there are (unlike at Heathrow) vast swathes of free parking and few security concerns. http://makeashorterlink.com/?F274227FA Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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In message , Neil Williams
writes According to the link below, there are 7,000 in the Trafford Centre alone, not to mention the huge industrial area of the Park. If I've not read it incorrectly, it is claimed that some 40,000 work in the entire Park - making it rather bigger in employment terms than Heathrow. See the following reference in Hansard for November 2001: http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/11105-23.htm Quote: According to figures published last year, direct employment at Heathrow is about 68,000. For every person directly employed at the airport, it is estimated that there are three in the supply chain. -- Paul Terry |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:37:43 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: How many people work in Trafford Park? IIRC the working population of Heathrow is around 6-8 thousand. According to the link below, there are 7,000 in the Trafford Centre alone, not to mention the huge industrial area of the Park. If I've not read it incorrectly, it is claimed that some 40,000 work in the entire Park - making it rather bigger in employment terms than Heathrow. That it was so huge (I was thinking more like 10,000 off the top of my head) surprised me greatly. Interesting. Any idea how those numbers compare to: - Provincial towns (eg Ashford, Basingstoke, Colchester) - Provincial city centres (eg Manchester city centre) - the City ? Not only that, but Trafford Park has very little in the way of rail passenger transport. For now - there's a good chance of a tram line, isn't there? tom -- What were the skies like when you were young? |
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In message , John Rowland
writes One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). I find that very hard to believe even with T4 closed. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:45:21 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: Interesting. Any idea how those numbers compare to: - Provincial towns (eg Ashford, Basingstoke, Colchester) - Provincial city centres (eg Manchester city centre) - the City Not sure, TBH, and such figures may be rather harder to find... For now - there's a good chance of a tram line, isn't there? I don't think we'll ever see it, as it will only be built if funded commercially, and I think the Trafford Centre itself is entirely happy with most of its visitors coming by car (they can, after all, buy more then) and a good number by bus as well. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:10:51 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote: According to figures published last year, direct employment at Heathrow is about 68,000. For every person directly employed at the airport, it is estimated that there are three in the supply chain. A bit more than earlier figures, indeed! If this is indeed true (perhaps the 6-8K is those directly employed by BAA at Heathrow rather than all the retail outlets etc?) that probably changes things. However, it still puts Trafford Park in a broadly similar league. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
... In message , John Rowland writes One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). I find that very hard to believe even with T4 closed. Since you drive the trains, that's the matter resolved! -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In message , John Rowland
writes One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). I find that very hard to believe even with T4 closed. Since you drive the trains, that's the matter resolved! But, but.... not all of them. Just the 4 a day through there :-) -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
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"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Neil Williams wrote: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:37:43 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: How many people work in Trafford Park? IIRC the working population of Heathrow is around 6-8 thousand. snip Not only that, but Trafford Park has very little in the way of rail passenger transport. For now - there's a good chance of a tram line, isn't there? no - it has to be funded privately, essentially by Peel Holdings who own the Trafford Centre. However they only offered to pay their bit if they could have planning permission for a massive expansion of the Trafford Centre, which was turned down. Of course a new line to the Trafford Centre would also pass MUFC (Old Trafford) - on an alignment already in place by the Ship Canal - which may be vital when the stadium expands again... if someone pays for it! TM |
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"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message ... In message , John Rowland writes One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). I find that very hard to believe even with T4 closed. Since you drive the trains, that's the matter resolved! But, but.... not all of them. Just the 4 a day through there :-) the same 4? tim |
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In message , "tim (moved to sweden)"
writes One of the busiest stations on the Piccadilly Line is Hatton Cross, I find that very hard to believe (except when T4 station is shut, as it is now). I find that very hard to believe even with T4 closed. Since you drive the trains, that's the matter resolved! But, but.... not all of them. Just the 4 a day through there :-) the same 4? Oh no, I get different trains every day. A typical day is 2 'rounders' that would be Arnos Grove - Cockfosters - Heathrow - Arnos Grove, have a break then do it all again. So I actually get to visit Hatton Cross 4 times a day. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:37:43 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: How many people work in Trafford Park? IIRC the working population of Heathrow is around 6-8 thousand. According to the link below, there are 7,000 in the Trafford Centre alone, not to mention the huge industrial area of the Park. If I've not read it incorrectly, it is claimed that some 40,000 work in the entire Park I wonder how many of those are part-time workers. Several of my university friends worked weekends at Bluewater to cut down on their debt. |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:22:12 +0100, James Farrar
wrote: I wonder how many of those are part-time workers. Several of my university friends worked weekends at Bluewater to cut down on their debt. Quite possibly. I'd not be in the least surprised if the same applied to Heathrow. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:22:12 +0100, James Farrar wrote: I wonder how many of those are part-time workers. Several of my university friends worked weekends at Bluewater to cut down on their debt. Quite possibly. I'd not be in the least surprised if the same applied to Heathrow. Nor would I. I'd suggest that a mere figure of how many people work in these places isn't really meaningful, and that it would be better to consider the maximum number working at any one time and/or the number of full-time-equivalent workers. |
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James Farrar wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:22:12 +0100, James Farrar wrote: I wonder how many of those are part-time workers. Several of my university friends worked weekends at Bluewater to cut down on their debt. Quite possibly. I'd not be in the least surprised if the same applied to Heathrow. Nor would I. I'd suggest that a mere figure of how many people work in these places isn't really meaningful, and that it would be better to consider the maximum number working at any one time and/or the number of full-time-equivalent workers. I'm not sure that would be helpful in transport planning. 10,000 full-time-equivalent jobs being filled by 15,000 people means a lot more journeys to/from the place than if they were filled by 10,000 people. Also part time workers tend to have less income than full time workers and, I believe, are less likely to have a car and so are more likely to need to use PT. -- regards Stephen |
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In message , at 18:33:08 on Sun, 1 May
2005, James Farrar remarked: I'd suggest that a mere figure of how many people work in these places isn't really meaningful, and that it would be better to consider the maximum number working at any one time and/or the number of full-time-equivalent workers. And it would be very odd if the figures quoted weren't those. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at
17:54:26 on Sun, 1 May 2005, Stephen Osborn remarked: I'm not sure that would be helpful in transport planning. 10,000 full-time-equivalent jobs being filled by 15,000 people means a lot more journeys to/from the place than if they were filled by 10,000 people. But you'd still have 10,000 people travelling to and from work in the busy periods. The 5,000 people swapping shifts in the middle of the day isn't so much of an issue. -- Roland Perry |
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