Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2005, TheOneKEA wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

I might have lost the plot, but that seems to make no sense
whatsoever - making the line longer wouldn't have capacity
implications. You could run trains at exactly the same frequency (if
you had a few more), so as far as Brixton is concerned, it wouldn't
be any different. Or am i being stupid?

Extending the line and adding more stations increases the number of
passengers that the line must carry.

Right.

To ensure that loadings remain even, train frequency must be increased
to compensate, which is the problem at hand.

Okay. I don't understand that - why does the frequency have to increase?

Because, given that the vast majority of passengers are travelling to
the central area (say Victoria - KXSP), the passengers from the new,
extension stations are using capacity in the central area which isn't
available.

The Victoria line is essentially full at the moment. If any new stations
are added (e.g. to the south), the trains will already be partly filled
up by the time they reach the current start of the line (e.g. Brixton).
With an extension, the point where they become totally full will be
further out than before (e.g. Vauxhall as opposed to Victoria), and so
passengers further in than this new "full point" (e.g. Pimlico) will
simply be unable to board the trains as there will be no available
capacity. Therefore frequency must be increased to allow the existing
passengers in the central area to board the trains.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sat, 21 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2005, TheOneKEA wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

I might have lost the plot, but that seems to make no sense whatsoever -
making the line longer wouldn't have capacity implications. You could run
trains at exactly the same frequency (if you had a few more), so as far
as Brixton is concerned, it wouldn't be any different. Or am i being
stupid?

Extending the line and adding more stations increases the number of
passengers that the line must carry.

Right.

To ensure that loadings remain even, train frequency must be increased to
compensate, which is the problem at hand.

Okay. I don't understand that - why does the frequency have to increase?

Because, given that the vast majority of passengers are travelling to the
central area (say Victoria - KXSP), the passengers from the new, extension
stations are using capacity in the central area which isn't available.

Aaah! I see. Yes, that's rather obvious when you put it like that, sorry.

The Victoria line is essentially full at the moment.

Next question, then - how come? It has a pretty decent 28.5 tph, it's the
shortest proper line in the whole network, and all but one of its stations
are on other lines as well!

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers as all
the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put together, or the
Piccadilly line stations from Cockfosters to Caledonian Road. I don't know
those areas terribly well, and i realise that at least some of them are
very densely populated areas, but that seems quite surprising. Is it
because there are few people getting off the line before central London? I
guess a lot of Picc passengers switch to the Vic at Finsbury Park, and
perhaps Northern passengers to the Vic at Stockwell! Or is the Victoria
line picking up a lot of passengers from the suburban railway network?

tom

--
Who would you help in a fight, Peter van der Linden or Bill Gates?

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:
(snip)
The Victoria line is essentially full at the moment.


Next question, then - how come? It has a pretty decent 28.5 tph, it's
the shortest proper line in the whole network, and all but one of its
stations are on other lines as well!

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers as
all the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put together,
or the Piccadilly line stations from Cockfosters to Caledonian Road. I
don't know those areas terribly well, and i realise that at least some
of them are very densely populated areas, but that seems quite
surprising. Is it because there are few people getting off the line
before central London? I guess a lot of Picc passengers switch to the
Vic at Finsbury Park, and perhaps Northern passengers to the Vic at
Stockwell! Or is the Victoria line picking up a lot of passengers from
the suburban railway network?

Well, according to the London Transport Strategy, in the morning peak,
the Victoria line is currently "very crowded" (i.e. operating in excess
of or near to planned capacity) northbound between Victoria and Green
Park, and southbound between Finsbury Park and King's Cross, and Euston
and Warren Street. Between Stockwell and Victoria it's just "busy"
northbound. The Northern line is "very crowded" northbound from Clapham
Common to Stockwell, after which it becomes "crowded" from there to
Kennington, suggesting a significant number of passengers transfer from
the Northern to the Victoria at Stockwell.

As I'd expect, the "very crowded" section north from Victoria indicates
that the line picks up an extremely high number of passengers from the
rail terminus, and it's on this Victoria - Green Park section that
capacity has been reached. Adding any stations further south would mean
those rail transfer passengers being left behind on the platform.
Unfortunately the diagrams in the Transport Strategy don't go beyond
Finsbury Park - but the Piccadilly southbound is at capacity already at
least between Finsbury Park and KXSP.

Incidentally, 2010 projections have the eastbound Piccadilly line
operating at capacity all the way from Barons Court to Hyde Park Corner
(presumably by which time, some passengers are so fed up they just get
off and get the bus!).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , (Dave Arquati)
wrote:

Well, according to the London Transport Strategy, in the morning peak,
the Victoria line is currently "very crowded" (i.e. operating in excess
of or near to planned capacity) northbound between Victoria and Green
Park, and southbound between Finsbury Park and King's Cross, and Euston
and Warren Street. Between Stockwell and Victoria it's just "busy"
northbound. The Northern line is "very crowded" northbound from Clapham
Common to Stockwell, after which it becomes "crowded" from there to
Kennington, suggesting a significant number of passengers transfer from
the Northern to the Victoria at Stockwell.

As I'd expect, the "very crowded" section north from Victoria indicates
that the line picks up an extremely high number of passengers from the
rail terminus, and it's on this Victoria - Green Park section that
capacity has been reached. Adding any stations further south would mean
those rail transfer passengers being left behind on the platform.
Unfortunately the diagrams in the Transport Strategy don't go beyond
Finsbury Park - but the Piccadilly southbound is at capacity already at
least between Finsbury Park and KXSP.

IME a very large proportion of every Victoria Line train get on and off at
Oxford Circus.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Dave Arquati)
wrote:


Well, according to the London Transport Strategy, in the morning peak,
the Victoria line is currently "very crowded" (i.e. operating in excess
of or near to planned capacity) northbound between Victoria and Green
Park, and southbound between Finsbury Park and King's Cross, and Euston
and Warren Street. Between Stockwell and Victoria it's just "busy"
northbound. The Northern line is "very crowded" northbound from Clapham
Common to Stockwell, after which it becomes "crowded" from there to
Kennington, suggesting a significant number of passengers transfer from
the Northern to the Victoria at Stockwell.

As I'd expect, the "very crowded" section north from Victoria indicates
that the line picks up an extremely high number of passengers from the
rail terminus, and it's on this Victoria - Green Park section that
capacity has been reached. Adding any stations further south would mean
those rail transfer passengers being left behind on the platform.
Unfortunately the diagrams in the Transport Strategy don't go beyond
Finsbury Park - but the Piccadilly southbound is at capacity already at
least between Finsbury Park and KXSP.


IME a very large proportion of every Victoria Line train get on and off at
Oxford Circus.

The diagram agrees, indicating that northbound trains are "crowded"
(i.e. approaching full) before Oxford Circus but "uncrowded" after it.
Southbound trains are "crowded" before Oxford Circus and "busy" after it
(as far as Victoria).

If anyone's interesting in looking at the diagrams, they're available as
part of this 382K PDF ("real" p91, Adobe Acrobat p6):
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strat...inal_ch04c.pdf

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Tom Anderson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 22 May 2005:

Next question, then - how come? It has a pretty decent 28.5 tph, it's the
shortest proper line in the whole network, and all but one of its stations
are on other lines as well!

Northbound trains usually have a little spare capacity until they reach
Victoria, at which point they invariably fill fuller than is
comfortable! I don't know at what point you begin to be able to breathe
again, but I assume at Kings Cross!

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers
as all the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put
together,

A great many people change on to the Vic at Stockwell, probably because
it is a great deal quicker across London than the Northern Line is, and
if you are going to (e.g.) King's Cross, it's enough quicker to make
changing worth while. You can usually get a seat at Brixton, unless a
train has been cancelled, but in peak hours it's often standing-room
only after Stockwell.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Tom Anderson wrote:

The Victoria line is essentially full at the moment.

Next question, then - how come? It has a pretty decent 28.5 tph, it's the
shortest proper line in the whole network, and all but one of its stations
are on other lines as well!

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers as all
the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put together, or the
Piccadilly line stations from Cockfosters to Caledonian Road. I don't know
those areas terribly well, and i realise that at least some of them are
very densely populated areas, but that seems quite surprising. Is it
because there are few people getting off the line before central London? I
guess a lot of Picc passengers switch to the Vic at Finsbury Park, and
perhaps Northern passengers to the Vic at Stockwell! Or is the Victoria
line picking up a lot of passengers from the suburban railway network?

I guess it could be a factor. If I were commuting up through Brixton to
Victoria and then needed the tube, I'd be inclined to get off at Brixton and
join the Victoria Line there rather than go through the squeeze at Victoria.
I'm not sure how fast the Balham - Stockwell route is but there could be
passengers using that as an alternative. Commuter trains at Vauxhaul have
often shed quite a few there at peak hours.

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

The Victoria line is essentially full at the moment.

Next question, then - how come? It has a pretty decent 28.5 tph, it's
the shortest proper line in the whole network, and all but one of its
stations are on other lines as well!

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers
as all the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put
together, or the Piccadilly line stations from Cockfosters to
Caledonian Road. I don't know those areas terribly well, and i
realise that at least some of them are very densely populated areas,
but that seems quite surprising. Is it because there are few people
getting off the line before central London? I guess a lot of Picc
passengers switch to the Vic at Finsbury Park, and perhaps Northern
passengers to the Vic at Stockwell! Or is the Victoria line picking
up a lot of passengers from the suburban railway network?

I guess it could be a factor. If I were commuting up through Brixton to
Victoria and then needed the tube, I'd be inclined to get off at
Brixton and join the Victoria Line there rather than go through the
squeeze at Victoria. I'm not sure how fast the Balham - Stockwell route
is but there could be passengers using that as an alternative. Commuter
trains at Vauxhaul have often shed quite a few there at peak hours.

If I take the tube from King's Cross to the office in Westminster I take
the Victoria Line to Green Park and the Jubilee from there to Westminster
but I come back via St James Park and Victoria so I'm more likely to get a
seat. For preference I cycle as it's quicker and more predictable.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 22 May 2005:

If I take the tube from King's Cross to the office in Westminster I take
the Victoria Line to Green Park and the Jubilee from there to Westminster
but I come back via St James Park and Victoria so I'm more likely to get a
seat. For preference I cycle as it's quicker and more predictable.

When I worked in Westminster I normally walked to Victoria. Actually, I
usually caught a bus home - where I live, I have the option of two
trains, a tube or a bus from Victoria.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005

Tom Anderson wrote:

For northbound trais to be be full at Victoria, Brixton, Stockwell,
Vauxhall and Pimlico would have to be generating as many passengers
as all
the Northern line stations from Morden to Kennington put together, or
the
Piccadilly line stations from Cockfosters to Caledonian Road. I don't
know
those areas terribly well, and i realise that at least some of them
are
very densely populated areas, but that seems quite surprising. Is it
because there are few people getting off the line before central
London? I
guess a lot of Picc passengers switch to the Vic at Finsbury Park,
and
perhaps Northern passengers to the Vic at Stockwell! Or is the
Victoria
line picking up a lot of passengers from the suburban railway
network?

Since Brixton's NR service is pretty feeble, IME far more people
(myself included) join the Victoria Line at Brixton from buses. It acts
as a (pretty unpleasant) parkway station for a huge area of tubeless
London, and I think is the busiest station outside Zone 1. If only it
had a decent bus interchange (like Hammersmith)!

As Annabel and others have already pointed out, it also takes a large
amount of the Northern Line's central London passengers at Stockwell!