Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005, James Farrar wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Hence, i suppose, the name 'T-cup'.

I thought the tea-cup name came from:

/----+---------------\
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
\---------------/

which looks a bit like a tea cup to me :)

Good god! I think you're right. I knew the tube diagram was an
exercise in fiendish Masonic symbolism, but this, this i had never
expected!

How about a route like this:

Hammersmith
Edgware Road
Liverpool Street
Aldgate
Tower Hill
Gloucester Road
Edgware Road (reverse)
Gloucester Road
Tower Hill
Aldgate East
Barking (reverse and do the whole thing backwards)

That, i think you'll find, would make it a tea-pot service!

Now, how can we do scones?

Hainault Loop? (It's jam-coloured!)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

On Mon, 30 May 2005, Jack Taylor wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

While we're on the H&C station at Paddington, i noticed the other day
that there are two mainline platforms on the fare-paid side of the
barriers; what are those all about? Are they used for suburban
services?

They are used by First Great Western Link suburban services. The original
layout of the four platforms was different and was remodelled in the 1960s,
when through services from the GW suburban stations ceased.

What do you mean by "through services from the GW suburban stations"?

Conversely, it is possible to gain access to the LUL platforms without
passing through the barriers by using the mainline access to the
suburban platforms and then crossing via the footbridge!

Worth knowing!

Ahem, not that i would ever resort to such knavery, of course. For a
start, there's nowhere equally cooperative to get off in town ...

tom

--
power to the people and the beats

Hammersmith & Crossrail line again was Circle Line "closing"from 2009?
 

On Tue, 31 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

I wondered whether Crossrail could take over Hammersmith - Paddington;

Yes, i've heard that idea mentioned by others. Strikes me as a good one,
basically.

Frequency on the northern side of the Circle could be maintained by
extending Wimblewares through to Whitechapel etc.

Or bringing more Metropolitan trains down from Baker Street to Aldgate -
sorry, Barking? That would leave a gap on the section before Baker Street,
though. Oh, if only they'd built a reversing bay at Baker Street, and we
could have a Wimbleker service ...

The problems would include the resiting of Royal Oak station (as the
Crossrail tunnel will surface right next to it)

Although if they knew they were going to do this all along, they could
probably bring the tunnel up slightly further east, destroying the link
from the SSL to Royal Oak in the process.

Where are the Crossrail lines going to be in the GW formation? Would
Crossrail - Hammersmith trains have to cross other lines? I doubt there's
room for a flying junction in the Paddington throat ...

and poorer access to stations Edgware Road - King's Cross.

That's probably the biggest issue - i should imagine lots of people living
on the H&C route work somewhere on the northern edge of the circle. All
such people who i know do. But then i work somewhere on the northern edge
of the circle, so they would!

tom

--
power to the people and the beats

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:


Conversely, it is possible to gain access to the LUL platforms without
passing through the barriers by using the mainline access to the
suburban platforms and then crossing via the footbridge!

Worth knowing!

--
power to the people and the beats


I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:


Conversely, it is possible to gain access to the LUL platforms without
passing through the barriers by using the mainline access to the
suburban platforms and then crossing via the footbridge!

Worth knowing!

--
power to the people and the beats


I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:


Conversely, it is possible to gain access to the LUL platforms without
passing through the barriers by using the mainline access to the
suburban platforms and then crossing via the footbridge!

Worth knowing!

--
power to the people and the beats


I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:


Conversely, it is possible to gain access to the LUL platforms without
passing through the barriers by using the mainline access to the
suburban platforms and then crossing via the footbridge!

Worth knowing!

--
power to the people and the beats


I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

What do you mean by "through services from the GW suburban stations"?

The H&C line stations were originally part of the GW, with connections to
the West London Railway, together with the crossovers at Paddington allowing
through working (reputedly even a Windsor to Aldgate service at one time!).
In latter years the only through working tended to be by freight services,
until the crossovers became redundant and were removed in 1968.

http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/hammersmith.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...ington-station
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/history.htm

Hammersmith & Crossrail line again was Circle Line "closing"from 2009?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

I wondered whether Crossrail could take over Hammersmith - Paddington;


Yes, i've heard that idea mentioned by others. Strikes me as a good one,
basically.

Frequency on the northern side of the Circle could be maintained by
extending Wimblewares through to Whitechapel etc.


Or bringing more Metropolitan trains down from Baker Street to Aldgate -
sorry, Barking? That would leave a gap on the section before Baker
Street, though. Oh, if only they'd built a reversing bay at Baker
Street, and we could have a Wimbleker service ...

I'm still not keen on Met trains running through to Barking - too long a
journey across too many flat junctions.

Perhaps the Wimblewares should take over Circle services by running all
the way around to Edgware Road again - or even loop-the-loop and then
head out to Whitechapel.

The problems would include the resiting of Royal Oak station (as the
Crossrail tunnel will surface right next to it)


Although if they knew they were going to do this all along, they could
probably bring the tunnel up slightly further east, destroying the link
from the SSL to Royal Oak in the process.

Assuming the current plans go ahead, it all depends on how long it takes
any gradient to level out to the west of the tunnel portal. I suspect
that it doesn't do so properly until around half the way to Westbourne
Park, which would be a pain.

Where are the Crossrail lines going to be in the GW formation? Would
Crossrail - Hammersmith trains have to cross other lines? I doubt
there's room for a flying junction in the Paddington throat ...

Crossrail is on the northern side of the formation as it surfaces,
immediately adjacent to the platforms at Royal Oak - no problem
connecting the infrastructure.

There might be some trickiness in extending the elevated station
platforms though.

and poorer access to stations Edgware Road - King's Cross.


That's probably the biggest issue - i should imagine lots of people
living on the H&C route work somewhere on the northern edge of the
circle. All such people who i know do. But then i work somewhere on the
northern edge of the circle, so they would!

Presumably the major destination on the H&C is the City, which Crossrail
serves fine. The Euston area poses some problems - people would have to
change at Paddington or Tottenham Court Road. Then again, the
interchange at Paddington shouldn't be too bad (if the Crossrail station
is under Eastbourne Terrace and the Circle line is under Praed St,
interchange won't be too long, particularly for Crossrail eastbound to
Circle eastbound), and if the main traffic generators around Euston are
to the south of the Euston Road, then they may not be that much further
from TCR Crossrail.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

In article ,
Jack Taylor wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

What do you mean by "through services from the GW suburban stations"?

The H&C line stations were originally part of the GW, with connections
to the West London Railway, together with the crossovers at Paddington
allowing through working (reputedly even a Windsor to Aldgate service at
one time!). In latter years the only through working tended to be by
freight services, until the crossovers became redundant and were removed
in 1968.

http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/hammersmith.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...ington-station
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/history.htm

Through passenger trains changed from steam to Metropolitan electric locos
(eg Sarah Siddons and her sisters) at Paddington Suburban (Bishops Road).
Freight trains were steam hauled throughout. It was great watching the
surprised look on the faces of waiting passengers as a pannier tank on a
freight train came rumbling through the Circle line stations.

David

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

ONscotland ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Quite a few of 'em, it would seem.

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

ONscotland ) gurgled happily, sounding much like

they were saying :

I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Yes there are LU barriers on the footbridge, but they are placed so
they 'enclose' two of Paddington's suburban platforms from which First
Great Western Link services run (the gates are obviously programmed to
allow FGWL tickets as well as LU tickets). However you can also access
these suburban platforms by walking up one of them from the main
Paddington concourse - and this is the route that isn't gated.

LU knows about this route as the have provided Oyster readers on the
H&C platforms for those Pre-Pay passengers who enter via this route. I
presume the placement of the LU gates on the footbridge was determined
in part by space and safety considerations, and they could not merely
have enclosed the H&C platforms. As for why there are no gates on the
route from the concourse to the FGWL platforms, I don't know. But I don
know there arn't any, at the moment at least.

My ASCII skills are rubbish but here is an attempt to illustrate the
situation:

= is the footbridge
/ is the LU gates
_ are the stairs down from footbridge to platforms
'H&C' is the Underground H&C island platform s
'FGWL' is the FGWL suburban island platforms, with ungated access to
the concourse.


FGWL H&C
_ _
_ _
_ _
_ _
===/===_=====_

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

In message .com, at
01:34:32 on Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Mizter T remarked:
ONscotland ) gurgled happily, sounding much like

they were saying :

I was sure that barriers were placed on the footbridge too...

Yes there are LU barriers on the footbridge, but they are placed so
they 'enclose' two of Paddington's suburban platforms from which First
Great Western Link services run (the gates are obviously programmed to
allow FGWL tickets as well as LU tickets). However you can also access
these suburban platforms by walking up one of them from the main
Paddington concourse - and this is the route that isn't gated.

LU knows about this route as the have provided Oyster readers on the
H&C platforms for those Pre-Pay passengers who enter via this route.

I wonder if these are new? When I was there a year ago it was very
difficult to find an Oyster reader having just got off a local FGW from
Ealing Broadway. I eventually discovered one hidden away near the ticket
office.

I presume the placement of the LU gates on the footbridge was
determined in part by space and safety considerations, and they could
not merely have enclosed the H&C platforms.

And also the relative position of the ticket office and the barriers
(the office overlooks the barriers). See below.

As for why there are no gates on the
route from the concourse to the FGWL platforms, I don't know. But I don
know there arn't any, at the moment at least.

The layout predates any barriers for national rail trains at Paddington.

My ASCII skills are rubbish but here is an attempt to illustrate the
situation:

= is the footbridge
/ is the LU gates
_ are the stairs down from footbridge to platforms
'H&C' is the Underground H&C island platform s
'FGWL' is the FGWL suburban island platforms, with ungated access to
the concourse.


FGWL H&C
_ _
_ _
_ _
_ _
===/===_=====_
TTT

T=ticket office.
--
Roland Perry

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

In article , Jack Taylor
writes
The H&C line stations were originally part of the GW, with connections to
the West London Railway, together with the crossovers at Paddington allowing
through working (reputedly even a Windsor to Aldgate service at one time!).

Even a train to Aldgate that slipped a coach into Paddington main line
station!

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

Jack Taylor:
The H&C line stations were originally part of the GW, with connections to
the West London Railway, together with the crossovers at Paddington allowing
through working (reputedly even a Windsor to Aldgate service at one time!).

The original H&C Railway was a GWR subsidiary at first. It started at
a junction with the GWR at what is now Westbourne Park, and ran south
to Hammersmith, with a branch soon added connecting to the WLR to
reach what is now Kensington (Olympia). It was used from the outset
for through running from the Metropolitan (i.e. the north side of the
Circle) -- initially using GWR tracks between what are now Paddington
(H&C) and Westbourne Park -- and soon became part of the Met for operating
purposes.

Clive Feather:
Even a train to Aldgate that slipped a coach into Paddington main line
station!

Yeah, once.

Incidentally, District trains also ran through onto the GWR to Windsor
for a little while, using a connecting track at Ealing Broadway. This
service operated from 1883 to 1885. The District itself at that time
consisted of two separate pieces connected by the LSWR tracks (now
District and Piccadilly) from Hammersmith to Turnham Green, so these
trains had to change railways three times on each trip.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Whatever you are, be out and out,
| not divided or in doubt." -- Brand (Ibsen)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Hammersmith & Crossrail line again was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:56 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

I wondered whether Crossrail could take over Hammersmith - Paddington;

Yes, i've heard that idea mentioned by others. Strikes me as a good one,
basically.

Aren't the stations a bit too close together for a Crossrail-type
line? At times they seem to approach DLR proximity...

And no doubt people would be up in arms if their local station were to
close.

Frequency on the northern side of the Circle could be maintained by
extending Wimblewares through to Whitechapel etc.

Or how about adding a service running Ealing Broadway (or Richmond) -
Earl's Court - Edgware Rd - Aldgate/Whitechapel. That would also
supplement the rather meagre service on those branches.


Here's another idea... why not combine the Hammersmith idea with the
(scrapped) proposal to take over the Richmond branch, by reinstating
the connection at Hammersmith (Grove Road)?

Part of the viaduct still exists. Trains could run Paddington -
Latimer Road - Hammersmith (Grove Road?) - Turnham Green - Richmond -
Kingston.

Hammersmith & Crossrail line again was Circle Line "closing" from 2009
 

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

Here's another idea... why not combine the Hammersmith idea with the
(scrapped) proposal to take over the Richmond branch, by reinstating
the connection at Hammersmith (Grove Road)?

Part of the viaduct still exists. Trains could run Paddington -
Latimer Road - Hammersmith (Grove Road?) - Turnham Green - Richmond -
Kingston.

Part being the operative word. I have a feeling there's a substantial
office block in the way.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Hammersmith & Crossrail line again was Circle Line "closing" from 2009
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Here's another idea... why not combine the Hammersmith idea with the
(scrapped) proposal to take over the Richmond branch, by reinstating
the connection at Hammersmith (Grove Road)?

Part of the viaduct still exists. Trains could run Paddington -
Latimer Road - Hammersmith (Grove Road?) - Turnham Green - Richmond -
Kingston.

Part being the operative word. I have a feeling there's a substantial
office block in the way.

There is - a damn big thing too. I also suspect that would cause
problems with the Piccadilly too as it would come out right in the
middle of the 'fast' lines.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
Even a train to Aldgate that slipped a coach into Paddington main line
station!
When you say "Slipped" do you mean unattached on the move and brought to
a stand by the guard?
--
Clive

Paddington H&C was Circle Line "closing" from 2009?
 

In article , Clive
writes
Even a train to Aldgate that slipped a coach into Paddington main line
station!
When you say "Slipped" do you mean unattached on the move and brought
to a stand by the guard?

Yes.

That is the normal meaning of the term, after all.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: