Tunnel damage
 

Patrick SIU wrote:
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote:
How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the
rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail
towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would
have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at
least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3)

Yes.

Tunnel damage
 

Given that London has continued to function without a Circle Line, I
wonder how much thought, if any, has been given to abolishing the
service altogether? Line Controllers tell me that If one discounts that
caused by security alerts, late running has effectively disappeared
from the District and Met Lines, now that so much inner-London
conflicting flat junction working has ended. On my own recent journies
to & from work, it seems incredible not to lose up to 10 minutes
traversing the Whitechapel - Tower Hill section of the District whilst
waiting for the passage of Circle and H&C trains.

Tunnel damage
 

"Brimstone" wrote:
Patrick SIU wrote:
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote:
How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the
rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail
towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would
have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at
least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3)

Yes.

Then how come he said "Three-car" after "four-car"?

Tunnel damage
 

Patrick SIU wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote:
Patrick SIU wrote:
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote:
How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the
rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail
towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit
would have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car
units so at least one of them should have been able to be
removed by rail.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3)

Yes.

Then how come he said "Three-car" after "four-car"?

Read it again. He was comparing what the reports said (the rear 4 cars)
with his view of what would have been simplest (the rear 3-car unit).
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Tunnel damage
 

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:42 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Half of the train at KX has been removed to Cockfosters depot while I
am
told the Edgware Road carriages were being taken away by low loader
today having been craned out.

How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the rear
four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail towards
King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would have been
the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at least one of
them should have been able to be removed by rail.

On the Picc Line I am sure our internal report said 4 cars. I assume
this was done to get the maximum amount of movable cars out of the way.
I appreciate this defies normal "logic" but we are not dealing with a
normal situation.

The Circle Line removal was explained to me as all cars being winched
out. Obviously only the one damaged car was taken out - as seen on TV.
I assume that the others have been pulled clear to allow the damaged car
out. I've not seen a report on what has moved and to where re the
remaining Edgware Rd / Aldgate trains.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Tunnel damage
 

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:52:12 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:40:28 on
Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Robert Woolley
remarked:
The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of
Kings Cross hence the closure.

There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner.

Why can't they run a "one train on the line" shuttle service on both the
tracks simultaneously? Over strategic sections: eg from Green Park to
Holborn and back. And Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and back.

Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running
nothing at all?

The frequency would be so low as to be almost useless - a train every
20-25 mins in each direction on each track at best. That analysis
ignores whether you could deal with the situation at Arnos Grove as not
every train could head south from there so some people would still have
to be placed onto replacement buses as the trains couldn't carry the
likely demand. You also have the issue of trains from each platform
going in each direction with the platform indicators and station signage
not configured to be able to cope with such an operation.

You would get massive issues at somewhere like Finsbury Park - what
platform would you go to and when for a northbound or southbound train
if both Picc tunnels ran in both directions? The potential for people
interchanging to get crushed in the narrow connecting corridors would be
too great and the risk to staff of assaults from angry and confused
passengers would be an issue too. As a side issue thank goodness it is
not the football season at present - quite how match crowds for Arsenal
will be managed I dread to think if the Picc remains out of action for a
long while.

You'd also run into issues about evacuation in the event of emergencies
where such a different method of operation could create risks and which
would require additional mitigation / controls over and above existing
procedures. All of that would have to be developed, approved and rolled
out before operation could take place.

It is far better to get people away from closed sections of line and on
to alternatives that are able to provide a robust level of service.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Tunnel damage
 

In message . com,
writes

Given that London has continued to function without a Circle Line, I
wonder how much thought, if any, has been given to abolishing the
service altogether?

I often think its a bit like the South Circular :(

--
Paul Terry

Tunnel damage
 

In message , at 19:11:48 on
Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Paul Corfield remarked:

The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of
Kings Cross hence the closure.

There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner.

Why can't they run a "one train on the line" shuttle service on both the
tracks simultaneously? Over strategic sections: eg from Green Park to
Holborn and back. And Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and back.

Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running
nothing at all?

The frequency would be so low as to be almost useless - a train every
20-25 mins in each direction on each track at best.

Green Park to Holborn is only four stops. Say 2 minutes each. And 2
minutes to reverse. These are worst-case. That gives you a complete
round trip in 20 minutes, and with two tunnels a 10 minute frequency.

That analysis ignores whether you could deal with the situation at
Arnos Grove as not every train could head south from there so some
people would still have to be placed onto replacement buses as the
trains couldn't carry the likely demand.

I'm not proposing anything changes at Arnos Grove.

You also have the issue of trains from each platform
going in each direction with the platform indicators and station signage
not configured to be able to cope with such an operation.

Have someone at each station operating a sign that says which (of the
two) platform the next train each way is expected. Green Park to Holborn
would need five people.

You would get massive issues at somewhere like Finsbury Park - what
platform would you go to and when for a northbound or southbound train
if both Picc tunnels ran in both directions?

You'd need to use some intelligence to set up a suitable system. Why are
you so defeatist?

quite how match crowds for Arsenal will be managed I dread to think if
the Picc remains out of action for a long while.

You'd probably need to close my system for the duration of football
matches. Yes, I can be defeatist too.

It is far better to get people away from closed sections of line and on
to alternatives that are able to provide a robust level of service.

If the alternate service is that good, why have the original service? (I
detect people asking this question about the Circle Line...)
--
Roland Perry

Tunnel damage
 

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:52:27 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

[snip]

You'd need to use some intelligence to set up a suitable system. Why are
you so defeatist?

Roland - I was trying to give a flavour of the issues involved. I am not
being defeatist at all.

Whatever system is designed has to be easy for the public to understand.
Having watched the utter confusion at Kings Cross when the first train
on a Sunday arrived from Heathrow - this reverses as I am sure you know
- I am convinced a more intensive proposition would not work. People on
the arriving train were non plussed as to what to do for stations beyond
KX on the Picc Line and I also watched people trying to get onto the
normal westbound platform, which is locked up at that time of day, who
then refused to believe suggestions from me and station staff that the
train on the "wrong" platform is really the train they want. Multiply
that a few thousand fold and you have a mess.

I make my contribution to this group voluntarily to try to help people
understand. I really don't need criticism for trying to be helpful.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Tunnel damage
 

J Lynch wrote:
Times may well have changed and this may not be an issue now, but one other
potential problem is that this also severs the Northern Line from the rest
of the underground network? The only connection between the Northern and the
rest of the underground is provided by the Kings Cross loop which is
(presumably) out of use for the time that the Piccadilly is split in two
like this? This was probably more important when Acton was the Central Works
but it also prevents engineers trains etc from reaching the Northern, which
could make track maintenance etc more difficult.

Chances are that if they really wanted to run engineers' trains, they
could -- the Kings Cross Loop from the Northern Line connects to the
eastbound (northbound) track on the Picc, which so far as I understand
is undamaged. Hence, an engineers' train from Lillie Bridge to the
Northern Line could run as normal to HPC, then let the batteries take
over to get it to King's Cross. Assuming somebody can operate the
points, it can happily then reverse to Euston.

On the way back, things will be dicier since it'll have to run
wrong-line from KX to HPC (usually it would use the KX crossover, but
that leads directly into the crash site) but an engineers' train can
surely run in a full possession, and then you can do pretty much
anything you like.

So, short answer: the Northern isn't cut off. Nonetheless, I wouldn't
expect much to happen for a little while. They'll use that method if
they absolutely need to get to the Northern, but I don't see it
happening any time soon.