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Tunnel damage
"Andy & Kim" wrote in message ... Hi Guy's, Regarding the recent bombings, does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Yes |
Tunnel damage
Hi Guy's,
Regarding the recent bombings, does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Andy |
Tunnel damage
In article ,
Robin Mayes wrote: "Andy & Kim" wrote in message ... Hi Guy's, Regarding the recent bombings, does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Yes Do you know who knows ? (Educated guesses allowed :-)) Nick -- http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself |
Tunnel damage
"Robin Mayes" wrote in message
... "Andy & Kim" wrote in message ... does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Yes Is it still a crime scene? If so, I doubt if anyone qualified to quantify damage has been near it. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Tunnel damage
"John Rowland" signs as follows:
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes And, for the present, it's been split in two! -- MatSav |
Tunnel damage
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:02:55 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: "Robin Mayes" wrote in message ... "Andy & Kim" wrote in message ... does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Yes Is it still a crime scene? If so, I doubt if anyone qualified to quantify damage has been near it. Well, at the Saturday press conference two days after the bombing Tim O'Toole stated that the Piccadilly line tunnel was intact, specifically in response to a press question as to whther it was "unsafe." Presumably they did a damage assessment immediately to determine if it was safe enough to be worked in as a crime scene. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
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Nick Cooper wrote:
Well, at the Saturday press conference two days after the bombing Tim O'Toole stated that the Piccadilly line tunnel was intact, specifically in response to a press question as to whther it was "unsafe." Presumably they did a damage assessment immediately to determine if it was safe enough to be worked in as a crime scene. I think the harder issue is how damaged is all the signaling system ie cables etc. Track is easy to repair, just cut out the busted bits and bolt in the lovely new shiny bits. As I understand it, the cables used for signaling are complex, varied and huge in quantity. And then there's the age of the signaling system. Are there any 'spares' floating around? or will they have to have new parts made from scratch? Loony T |
Tunnel damage
Well, at the Saturday press conference two days after the bombing Tim
O'Toole stated that the Piccadilly line tunnel was intact, Just from what I've seen in the media and by the consequences of the bombs it seems to me that they weren't all that powerful (otherwise the carriages would have completely annihalated and no one inside would have survived) so I suspect damage to the tunnels (which are built a lot stronger than the trains) is probably limited to damaged cabling and track. B2003 |
Tunnel damage
Well, at the Saturday press conference two days after the bombing Tim O'Toole stated that the Piccadilly line tunnel was intact, specifically in response to a press question as to whther it was "unsafe." Presumably they did a damage assessment immediately to determine if it was safe enough to be worked in as a crime scene. I think the harder issue is how damaged is all the signaling system ie cables etc. Track is easy to repair, just cut out the busted bits and bolt in the lovely new shiny bits. As I understand it, the cables used for signaling are complex, varied and huge in quantity. And then there's the age of the signaling system. Are there any 'spares' floating around? or will they have to have new parts made from scratch? Remember the Camden Town derailment. I think that took about 2 weeks for it to reopen. Wasn't the main delay there tracing where the damaged cables went to. |
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Boltar wrote: Well, at the Saturday press conference two days after the bombing Tim O'Toole stated that the Piccadilly line tunnel was intact, Just from what I've seen in the media and by the consequences of the bombs it seems to me that they weren't all that powerful (otherwise the carriages would have completely annihalated and no one inside would have survived) so I suspect damage to the tunnels (which are built a lot stronger than the trains) is probably limited to damaged cabling and track. B2003 Cabling can be a problem though. It was on the news a while ago. The reason the Northern Line took so long to get working last time that had an accident was that they didn't have any up to date wiring diagrams. If the Piccadilly line is the same then that could take a while too. |
Tunnel damage
"Nick Leverton" wrote in message ... In article , Robin Mayes wrote: "Andy & Kim" wrote in message ... Hi Guy's, Regarding the recent bombings, does anybody know how badly damaged the tunnels are and the infrastructure it's self? Yes Do you know who knows ? (Educated guesses allowed :-)) News today is the the Circle ought to open within a fortnight. The Picc is to remain closed for an unspecified (unknown) time, probably many months. Nick -- http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself |
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I just read this from the tube's website on the ask tube section
"Question When will the Tubes be returning to normal after the events of 7 July? Answer We will not be in a position to add to the current level of service on the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines for a number of days. The service on the Piccadilly line will remain suspended between Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner for the foreseeable future. Following agreement with the Police, the Victoria line is now stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras. The Northern line will start stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras again from Monday 17 July." this text gives the ideia that the suspention is here to stay, what do you think? |
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by the way... if they only have problem with the cables why does circle
will be working soon? does that line don't have cables? (I know it's not so close to the train, but they're still there, don't they? Pedro. |
Tunnel damage
On 19 Jul 2005 12:38:38 -0700, "mtveurope" wrote:
by the way... if they only have problem with the cables why does circle will be working soon? does that line don't have cables? (I know it's not so close to the train, but they're still there, don't they? I have not seen any detailed information but both of the Circle Line bombs took place in wider tunnels and the trains are of a different profile to those of the Picc Line. Therefore the outward effect of the explosions would seem to be less. As there is more space in the sub surface tunnels then it is possible that there is less cable damage. All tube lines have a range of cables running alongside to provide telephone, communication, signalling and power supplies. The amount of cabling is potentially more complex at junctions and all of the explosions took place near junctions or crossovers so there is a clear need to be careful in clearing / cleaning / repairing the sites so that more damage is not caused in the short run. There will be important issues to consider in what is restored in what order to ensure a logical and safe approach is taken, that the infrastructure is in a resilient state and that the safety regulators can be confident on behalf of the public that the railway is safe to reopen. People will naturally be concerned / nervous about travelling over the bombed sections of line so a fully safe and reliable railway is needed to provide reassurance to London's tube users. Although I can be accused of being biased as I work for LU I think the progress thus far has been very good in trying circumstances. I look forward to having the railway back and working properly. People need to be patient even though I can understand why people may be getting "hacked off" with disrupted journeys and overcrowding. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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It took almost 1 year to the day for the #1 train to run under the WTC site. The other WTC stations World Trade Center on the E & Cortlandt St on the N R & W are on the outskirts of WTC while the 1train was in the center of WTC. Ironically as a life long NYer i was not in NYC on 9/11 but was at Heathrow on 7/7. |
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"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On 19 Jul 2005 12:38:38 -0700, "mtveurope" wrote: by the way... if they only have problem with the cables why does circle will be working soon? does that line don't have cables? (I know it's not so close to the train, but they're still there, don't they? I have not seen any detailed information but both of the Circle Line bombs took place in wider tunnels and the trains are of a different profile to those of the Picc Line. Therefore the outward effect of the explosions would seem to be less. As there is more space in the sub surface tunnels then it is possible that there is less cable damage. All tube lines have a range of cables running alongside to provide telephone, communication, signalling and power supplies. The amount of cabling is potentially more complex at junctions and all of the explosions took place near junctions or crossovers so there is a clear need to be careful in clearing / cleaning / repairing the sites so that more damage is not caused in the short run. Yes, the cable run suffered from extensive damage. Don't forget that even once the signalling cables have been replaced, extensive testing needs to be carried out to ensure the rewiring is done correctly. Luckily, most of Aldgate was resignalled during the late 1980s so the diagrams should be available. |
Tunnel damage
"mtveurope" wrote in message
oups.com... I just read this from the tube's website on the ask tube section "Question When will the Tubes be returning to normal after the events of 7 July? Answer We will not be in a position to add to the current level of service on the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines for a number of days. The service on the Piccadilly line will remain suspended between Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner for the foreseeable future. Following agreement with the Police, the Victoria line is now stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras. The Northern line will start stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras again from Monday 17 July." Why is so much of the Piccadilly line closed? I'd have thought they could run trains to within a station or so either side of the blockage. Or does the damage to the cable between KX and RS have a knock-on effect on *all* of the section north of KX? Is it a matter of where there are crossovers to allow southbound trains to turn back at (say) KX to return north? You'd think that at least Arnos Grove to Finsbury Park could be run, so as to feed outlying passengers into the Victoria line and the NR lines into KX and Moorgate. |
Tunnel damage
"mtveurope" wrote in message ups.com... by the way... if they only have problem with the cables why does circle will be working soon? does that line don't have cables? (I know it's not so close to the train, but they're still there, don't they? Pedro. Different signalling sections. The rest of the line can work (i.e. the rest of the Pic) but not the affected areas. Loony T |
Tunnel damage
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:03:24 +0100, "Martin Underwood"
wrote: "mtveurope" wrote in message roups.com... I just read this from the tube's website on the ask tube section "Question When will the Tubes be returning to normal after the events of 7 July? Answer We will not be in a position to add to the current level of service on the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines for a number of days. The service on the Piccadilly line will remain suspended between Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner for the foreseeable future. Following agreement with the Police, the Victoria line is now stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras. The Northern line will start stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras again from Monday 17 July." Why is so much of the Piccadilly line closed? I'd have thought they could run trains to within a station or so either side of the blockage. Or does the damage to the cable between KX and RS have a knock-on effect on *all* of the section north of KX? Is it a matter of where there are crossovers to allow southbound trains to turn back at (say) KX to return north? You'd think that at least Arnos Grove to Finsbury Park could be run, so as to feed outlying passengers into the Victoria line and the NR lines into KX and Moorgate. Depends on the location of crossovers. The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of Kings Cross hence the closure. There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner. Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Tunnel damage
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message ... "mtveurope" wrote in message oups.com... I just read this from the tube's website on the ask tube section "Question When will the Tubes be returning to normal after the events of 7 July? Answer We will not be in a position to add to the current level of service on the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines for a number of days. The service on the Piccadilly line will remain suspended between Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner for the foreseeable future. Following agreement with the Police, the Victoria line is now stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras. The Northern line will start stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras again from Monday 17 July." Why is so much of the Piccadilly line closed? I'd have thought they could run trains to within a station or so either side of the blockage. Or does the damage to the cable between KX and RS have a knock-on effect on *all* of the section north of KX? Is it a matter of where there are crossovers to allow southbound trains to turn back at (say) KX to return north? You'd think that at least Arnos Grove to Finsbury Park could be run, so as to feed outlying passengers into the Victoria line and the NR lines into KX and Moorgate. Not knowing the line geography (except it goes to Heathrow) I'd say it's to do with reversing points. I'm sure that these are the most time efficient places to reverse. Maybe there's sidings or cross overs to enable a quick turn round and thus still give a reasonable service to the rest of the line. Loony T |
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In message , at 23:40:28 on
Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Robert Woolley remarked: The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of Kings Cross hence the closure. There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner. Why can't they run a "one train on the line" shuttle service on both the tracks simultaneously? Over strategic sections: eg from Green Park to Holborn and back. And Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and back. Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running nothing at all? -- Roland Perry |
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In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running nothing at all? I suspect that demand would so far strip supply that the platforms would be dangerously overcrowded. isolating the power so that work around Kings X may be tricky. -- Mike Bristow - really a very good driver |
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In message , at 07:14:16 on Wed,
20 Jul 2005, Mike Bristow remarked: In article , Roland Perry wrote: Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running nothing at all? I suspect that demand would so far strip supply that the platforms would be dangerously overcrowded. I was suggesting fairly short runs, with one train in each tunnel. You'd get about one every 10 minutes I suppose. isolating the power so that work around Kings X may be tricky. Just lift the rails for a short section south of the station. But I agree that you'd have to see where the power feed was, and make sure that was sufficient within the proposed schemes. -- Roland Perry |
Tunnel damage
In article , Robin Mayes
writes Yes, the cable run suffered from extensive damage. Don't forget that even once the signalling cables have been replaced, extensive testing needs to be carried out to ensure the rewiring is done correctly. Luckily, most of Aldgate was resignalled during the late 1980s so the diagrams should be available. Having recently retired from a life time of supporting, modifying and replacing 'legacy' IT systems allow me to express some doubt. Most 'legacy' IT systems are less than ten years old and their documentation invariably leaves much to be desired, no matter how good it was when the system was implemented. The two pointers that I can see to suggest there might be problems are age and the fact that responsibility for maintenance has been transferred to an out-sourcing company. When ever a transfer takes place, there is a dreadful tendency to 'rationalise' documentation and in so doing loose the essential data. -- Nicholas David Richards - "Oł sont les neiges d'antan?" |
Tunnel damage
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message ... "mtveurope" wrote in message oups.com... I just read this from the tube's website on the ask tube section "Question When will the Tubes be returning to normal after the events of 7 July? Answer We will not be in a position to add to the current level of service on the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines for a number of days. The service on the Piccadilly line will remain suspended between Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner for the foreseeable future. Following agreement with the Police, the Victoria line is now stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras. The Northern line will start stopping at King's Cross/St Pancras again from Monday 17 July." Why is so much of the Piccadilly line closed? I'd have thought they could run trains to within a station or so either side of the blockage. Or does the damage to the cable between KX and RS have a knock-on effect on *all* of the section north of KX? Is it a matter of where there are crossovers to allow southbound trains to turn back at (say) KX to return north? You'd think that at least Arnos Grove to Finsbury Park could be run, so as to feed outlying passengers into the Victoria line and the NR lines into KX and Moorgate. Times may well have changed and this may not be an issue now, but one other potential problem is that this also severs the Northern Line from the rest of the underground network? The only connection between the Northern and the rest of the underground is provided by the Kings Cross loop which is (presumably) out of use for the time that the Piccadilly is split in two like this? This was probably more important when Acton was the Central Works but it also prevents engineers trains etc from reaching the Northern, which could make track maintenance etc more difficult. |
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In message , Roland
Perry writes isolating the power so that work around Kings X may be tricky. Just lift the rails for a short section south of the station. But I agree that you'd have to see where the power feed was, and make sure that was sufficient within the proposed schemes. In the central section, a current section might only be a few hundred yards long and is easily isolated by touching the telephone wires together and laying down short circuiting bars in the section. -- Clive |
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"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote:
How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail. -- Colin Rosenstiel Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3) |
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Patrick SIU wrote:
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote: How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail. -- Colin Rosenstiel Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3) Yes. |
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Given that London has continued to function without a Circle Line, I
wonder how much thought, if any, has been given to abolishing the service altogether? Line Controllers tell me that If one discounts that caused by security alerts, late running has effectively disappeared from the District and Met Lines, now that so much inner-London conflicting flat junction working has ended. On my own recent journies to & from work, it seems incredible not to lose up to 10 minutes traversing the Whitechapel - Tower Hill section of the District whilst waiting for the passage of Circle and H&C trains. |
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"Brimstone" wrote:
Patrick SIU wrote: "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote: How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail. -- Colin Rosenstiel Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3) Yes. Then how come he said "Three-car" after "four-car"? |
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Patrick SIU wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote: Patrick SIU wrote: "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote: How many cars were removed by rail Earlier reports said that the rear four cars of the Piccadilly train would be removed by rail towards King's Cross while presumably the rear three car unit would have been the simplest. The Circle trains are two-car units so at least one of them should have been able to be removed by rail. -- Colin Rosenstiel Aren't Picc trains six cars? (3-3) Yes. Then how come he said "Three-car" after "four-car"? Read it again. He was comparing what the reports said (the rear 4 cars) with his view of what would have been simplest (the rear 3-car unit). -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:52:12 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 23:40:28 on Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Robert Woolley remarked: The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of Kings Cross hence the closure. There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner. Why can't they run a "one train on the line" shuttle service on both the tracks simultaneously? Over strategic sections: eg from Green Park to Holborn and back. And Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and back. Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running nothing at all? The frequency would be so low as to be almost useless - a train every 20-25 mins in each direction on each track at best. That analysis ignores whether you could deal with the situation at Arnos Grove as not every train could head south from there so some people would still have to be placed onto replacement buses as the trains couldn't carry the likely demand. You also have the issue of trains from each platform going in each direction with the platform indicators and station signage not configured to be able to cope with such an operation. You would get massive issues at somewhere like Finsbury Park - what platform would you go to and when for a northbound or southbound train if both Picc tunnels ran in both directions? The potential for people interchanging to get crushed in the narrow connecting corridors would be too great and the risk to staff of assaults from angry and confused passengers would be an issue too. As a side issue thank goodness it is not the football season at present - quite how match crowds for Arsenal will be managed I dread to think if the Picc remains out of action for a long while. You'd also run into issues about evacuation in the event of emergencies where such a different method of operation could create risks and which would require additional mitigation / controls over and above existing procedures. All of that would have to be developed, approved and rolled out before operation could take place. It is far better to get people away from closed sections of line and on to alternatives that are able to provide a robust level of service. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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In message , at 19:11:48 on
Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Paul Corfield remarked: The crime scene is very close to the trailing crossover just south of Kings Cross hence the closure. There are no other crossovers between Arnos and Hyde Park Corner. Why can't they run a "one train on the line" shuttle service on both the tracks simultaneously? Over strategic sections: eg from Green Park to Holborn and back. And Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and back. Or is the reduced capacity that would offer actually worse than running nothing at all? The frequency would be so low as to be almost useless - a train every 20-25 mins in each direction on each track at best. Green Park to Holborn is only four stops. Say 2 minutes each. And 2 minutes to reverse. These are worst-case. That gives you a complete round trip in 20 minutes, and with two tunnels a 10 minute frequency. That analysis ignores whether you could deal with the situation at Arnos Grove as not every train could head south from there so some people would still have to be placed onto replacement buses as the trains couldn't carry the likely demand. I'm not proposing anything changes at Arnos Grove. You also have the issue of trains from each platform going in each direction with the platform indicators and station signage not configured to be able to cope with such an operation. Have someone at each station operating a sign that says which (of the two) platform the next train each way is expected. Green Park to Holborn would need five people. You would get massive issues at somewhere like Finsbury Park - what platform would you go to and when for a northbound or southbound train if both Picc tunnels ran in both directions? You'd need to use some intelligence to set up a suitable system. Why are you so defeatist? quite how match crowds for Arsenal will be managed I dread to think if the Picc remains out of action for a long while. You'd probably need to close my system for the duration of football matches. Yes, I can be defeatist too. It is far better to get people away from closed sections of line and on to alternatives that are able to provide a robust level of service. If the alternate service is that good, why have the original service? (I detect people asking this question about the Circle Line...) -- Roland Perry |
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:52:27 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: [snip] You'd need to use some intelligence to set up a suitable system. Why are you so defeatist? Roland - I was trying to give a flavour of the issues involved. I am not being defeatist at all. Whatever system is designed has to be easy for the public to understand. Having watched the utter confusion at Kings Cross when the first train on a Sunday arrived from Heathrow - this reverses as I am sure you know - I am convinced a more intensive proposition would not work. People on the arriving train were non plussed as to what to do for stations beyond KX on the Picc Line and I also watched people trying to get onto the normal westbound platform, which is locked up at that time of day, who then refused to believe suggestions from me and station staff that the train on the "wrong" platform is really the train they want. Multiply that a few thousand fold and you have a mess. I make my contribution to this group voluntarily to try to help people understand. I really don't need criticism for trying to be helpful. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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J Lynch wrote:
Times may well have changed and this may not be an issue now, but one other potential problem is that this also severs the Northern Line from the rest of the underground network? The only connection between the Northern and the rest of the underground is provided by the Kings Cross loop which is (presumably) out of use for the time that the Piccadilly is split in two like this? This was probably more important when Acton was the Central Works but it also prevents engineers trains etc from reaching the Northern, which could make track maintenance etc more difficult. Chances are that if they really wanted to run engineers' trains, they could -- the Kings Cross Loop from the Northern Line connects to the eastbound (northbound) track on the Picc, which so far as I understand is undamaged. Hence, an engineers' train from Lillie Bridge to the Northern Line could run as normal to HPC, then let the batteries take over to get it to King's Cross. Assuming somebody can operate the points, it can happily then reverse to Euston. On the way back, things will be dicier since it'll have to run wrong-line from KX to HPC (usually it would use the KX crossover, but that leads directly into the crash site) but an engineers' train can surely run in a full possession, and then you can do pretty much anything you like. So, short answer: the Northern isn't cut off. Nonetheless, I wouldn't expect much to happen for a little while. They'll use that method if they absolutely need to get to the Northern, but I don't see it happening any time soon. |
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