In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Not even that. I chose the "Route with the least walking between
stops "option and got that as the second route offered.

What was the first route? Routes offered often vary according to the
time of day you request (especially with less frequent services on a
Sunday).

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak (warning of
delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then Northern line to
Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus. The other three
routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I don't think that's entirely fair, at least without knowing precisely
how Helen primed the search engine.

For instance, to arrive at the Albert Hall by 19:00 on a Saturday, the
Journey Planner suggests that the quickest route is the one via Green
Park that she rejected:

Leave at 17.21 and arrive at 18.49, with a journey time of 1'28".

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I don't necessarily think so. Helen knew the route she wanted, but it is
actually a little longer.

Why send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well
using two buses?

Because it is potentially quicker using the tube.

Where human knowledge comes in is the experience that two changes risks
more delay than one - but then experience might also suggest that a
delay on the tube is generally less likely and less damaging than a bus
that gets stuck in traffic.

The Journey Planner is far from perfect but, like most search engines,
what you put in determines what comes out. If you want minimum changes
rather than the quickest way, say so - and it will come up with the
two-bus route.

--
Paul Terry

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak (warning of
delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then Northern line to
Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus.

And that indeed is potentially the quickest route (1'29")

The other three routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

All slightly longer (up to 1'34").

--
Paul Terry

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:56 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert
Hall' as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have
done for a better suggestion?

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing
knowledge of the transport network that the average person would
not have at all. Why send people round the houses by tube for a
trip that can work well using two buses?

My point was that I didn't go that far. I chose an option, "Route with
the least walking between stops" which seemed better to reflect Helen's
mobility, and it came up with more sensible suggestions.

You're not alone in being disappointed by the recent performance
of TfL's Journey Planner. It seems to have become infected by
transportdirect.info.

Heaven help us then. I've tried to use transport direct and found it
utterly useless. Some of the traveline search engines are OK but
I wish they would standardise on a format - the different user
interfaces for each region are incredibly annoying and often not
remotely intuitive.

Yes, I've been worried by TfL's JP performance recently.

Its suggestions for my journey to work are laughable, not between home
and King's Cross (apart from suggesting using a Guide Friday bus to
Cambridge station) but from there to work. It sends me on the
Piccadilly to Leicester Square and on the 24 and 77A from there to
work, taking a helluvalot longer than it takes me when I don't have my
bike via the Victoria and Jubilee lines to Westminster.

It did (at the second attempt) make a sensible suggestion for the
homeward journey which is actually what I do without the bike, St
James's Park to victoria and thence to KXSP by Victoria Line. The walk
from London Victoria to London Victoria looks rather weird.

It also doesn't allow me to cycle to the station. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak. I had Prom tickets
for the 9th Symphony last night.

Thought I'd take 302 to somewhere beyond Willesden and 52 to RAH;
simple, about an hour, minimal expense for my partner (I have a Freedom
Pass), next-to no walking, etc.

Then I checked with Journey Planner; this put me on the Tube via
Leicester Square and South Ken, which would have entailed a long walk,
more expense and more changes;

To be fair, you didn't tell it to minimise cost or walking, and i think
minimising total travel time is the most sensible default.

it would also have taken longer.

Are you absolutely sure about that? If there's one thing i've learned
about public transport in London, it's to avoid buses like the plague -
IME, they're reliably slower and less frequent than advertised, especially
during peak times like the evening rush. Although it seems ...

Ignored JP and took buses as I'd planned. One hour door-to-door, even
less on the return.

.... that this isn't true where you live!

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

tom

--
No kings, voting or presidents, just a rough consensus and running code. -- Dave Clark

"David Biddulph" typed


"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.
....

I hope you enjoyed the concert. Good, wasn't it?

Wonderful!
Had an email to say we were on TV; we don't have a TV and don't really
care. I was two boxes to the left of the BBC, wearing a navy jacket and
red shirt...

In the old days the "Choral" would have been the penultimate night of the
season, but we've still got 3 weeks to go. Remember that the Last Night is
another of the weekends when the Circle & District aren't running through
South Ken.

I won't be going to the last night. The best way for me to get to RAH is
by bus anyway ;-)

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak
(warning of delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then
Northern line to Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus.

And that indeed is potentially the quickest route (1'29")

The other three routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

All slightly longer (up to 1'34").

Not all. At least one was quicker, 1'23 IIRC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Corfield typed


I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I somehow think it's been programmed to prefer or default to the
'faster' modes such as Tube and rail and somehow to route them via
stations as 'nodes', but I'm not a programmer.

Why
send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well using
two buses?

Poor programming, methinks.

Buses were cheaper, quicker, involved fewer changes and less walking, ie
better in every way...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

(Colin Rosenstiel)typed


In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Not even that. I chose the "Route with the least walking between
stops "option and got that as the second route offered.

What was the first route? Routes offered often vary according to the
time of day you request (especially with less frequent services on a
Sunday).

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The original request was 17.30 Saturday...

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak (warning of
delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then Northern line to
Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus. The other three
routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

Holyrood Gardens is my nearest bus stop by far. Going to Burnt Oak
Station would always be a mistake for this journey. The 302 comes 'every
8-12 minutes' on a Saturday and the 52 more frequently. Though we'd just
missed a 302, we waited less than 5 minutes for the next, and less than
10 minutes for a 52.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:24 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Yes, I've been worried by TfL's JP performance recently.

I haven't noticed anything bizarre, but I'll keep an eye on it for
interest's sake.

I just tried putting in my journey to work tomorrow morning and it
came up with the two sensible routes (though neither the one I
actually use, since walking from Charing Cross to the northern end of
Great Portland Street is just silly!)

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon