Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

This article is worrying:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4361286.stm

I would like to be able to buy an Oyster reader (similar to that used
by inspectors) so I can check that my Oyster has been processed
correctly after boarding a bus or tram.

The problem is you have no proof that you have paid - at least if I had
an Oyster reader if I see a problem with my card I can try to validate
my Oyster Card again.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

I would like to be able to buy an Oyster reader (similar to that used
by inspectors) so I can check that my Oyster has been processed
correctly after boarding a bus or tram.

The problem is you have no proof that you have paid - at least if I had
an Oyster reader if I see a problem with my card I can try to validate
my Oyster Card again.

Just think what could happen with a contactless system to read the data on
the card , when it falls in the hands of those using it for fraudulent
reasons..
Just mingle in an underground train with the punters, and obtain all of the
personal data stored on it... sounds pretty horendous. I doubt if you will
ever have an oyster card reader...

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On 20 Oct 2005 14:36:13 -0700, "Clive Dennis"
wrote:

This article is worrying:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4361286.stm

I would like to be able to buy an Oyster reader (similar to that used
by inspectors) so I can check that my Oyster has been processed
correctly after boarding a bus or tram.

The problem is you have no proof that you have paid - at least if I had
an Oyster reader if I see a problem with my card I can try to validate
my Oyster Card again.


The article was designed to be worrying.

There always turns out to be considerable subtext to this sort of
thing. Let's see what emerges. I'll almost guarantee she had an
agenda.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:09:11 GMT, "turbo"
wrote:

Just think what could happen with a contactless system to read the data on
the card , when it falls in the hands of those using it for fraudulent
reasons..
Just mingle in an underground train with the punters, and obtain all of the
personal data stored on it... sounds pretty horendous. I doubt if you will
ever have an oyster card reader...

What personal data? The card has an identity. The central system
can correlate that identity with a name and address. What makes you
think that information is stored on the card?

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:40:15 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:14 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

There always turns out to be considerable subtext to this sort of
thing. Let's see what emerges. I'll almost guarantee she had an
agenda.

I'd be willing to lay money on her Oyster not having been read properly
(perhaps because she didn't touch it flat to the disc) and the driver
not having called her back, given the 94 is a "normal" Double Decker
route.

I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

This was in the 'Standard' on Monday. It said: "neither the machine
nor the driver warned her the payment had apparently failed." Reading
between the lines, that suggested she _didn't_ get a green light, but
she still boarded, without querying it with the driver. Saying, "the
machine didn't warn me," is lame.


--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:40:15 +0100 someone who may be Barry Salter
wrote this:-

I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Er, why should someone pay a "penalty" fare if they have already
paid the fare by a card gizmo?

As with cash machines there seems to be an assumption, which the
operators are not keen to correct, that machines always work.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?


Not so much of a problem on the tube as the gate swinging open is a good
indication that you've touched in correctly.

However, I have had much trouble on the DLR and buses with readers.

If you don't touch in properly by laying your card flat on the reader for a
second then
sometimes the card registers and sometimes it doesn't.

It may beep and and give you an error message
But it sometimes register anyway.
If you touch in again to make sure then more often than not you end up with
an unresolved journey.
And unresolved journey are of course a pain. Especially in non tube areas
like the DLR where you have to phone
Oyster customer services.

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.
You don't have to prove your innocence. The prosecutor has to prove
your guilt - beyond reasonable doubt.

I have no doubt Tfl would be delighted if the reverse were true.

Roger

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

londoncityslicker wrote:
"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?


Not so much of a problem on the tube as the gate swinging open is a good
indication that you've touched in correctly.

However, I have had much trouble on the DLR and buses with readers.

If you don't touch in properly by laying your card flat on the reader for a
second then
sometimes the card registers and sometimes it doesn't.

It may beep and and give you an error message
But it sometimes register anyway.
If you touch in again to make sure then more often than not you end up with
an unresolved journey.
And unresolved journey are of course a pain. Especially in non tube areas
like the DLR where you have to phone
Oyster customer services.

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this

Actually the oyster phone line is bloody useless. I live in a DLR area
but with no tube stations nearby. The "helpline" cannot resolve
unresolved journies meaning I have to go to a tube station and cannot
use my Oyster card in the meantime - meaning I have to pay normal cash
rates! There are some serious problems with Oyster pre-paid for those
not living near a tube station that TFL are just ignoring. As per
normal us Londoners not living near a tube station get a second rate
transport service....

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

You don't have to prove your innocence.

If the accused cannot present a valid ticket, then their mere
*intention* to have paid the fare might not be sufficient. IANAL.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:14 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

There always turns out to be considerable subtext to this sort of
thing. Let's see what emerges. I'll almost guarantee she had an
agenda.

I'd be willing to lay money on her Oyster not having been read properly
(perhaps because she didn't touch it flat to the disc) and the driver
not having called her back, given the 94 is a "normal" Double Decker
route.

I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Well I saw the BBC London news report and the accused fare dodger was quite
emphatic that she offered to pay the penalty fare a number of times, but the
inspector just demanded her name and address and confiscated the oyster
card. This was in February, and she has got the summons two weeks ago.

If her version of events are true, it would not be a first. TfL penalty fare
staff seem to assume everyone without a valid fare did so deliberately and
needs to go through the courts . The whole system is reminiscent of the ham
fisted way of the performance related pay parking wardens were originally
run. There must be some kind of internal target for prosecutions they have
all the staff aiming for.

Cheers,

Barry

--
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

In message . ac.uk, at
10:33:45 on Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Alan J. Flavell
remarked:
However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

And a bit of an issue if the reason you don't have a ticket is because
you've been mugged and your bag stolen.
--
Roland Perry

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

In message , at 12:38:20 on Fri, 21 Oct
2005, Chris remarked:
Well I saw the BBC London news report and the accused fare dodger was quite
emphatic that she offered to pay the penalty fare a number of times, but the
inspector just demanded her name and address and confiscated the oyster
card.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just try swiping the card again? I
assume it had some credit on it.
--
Roland Perry

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Has anyone ever requested PROOF from the bus driver that the Oyster has
been validated?

I was thinking of printing out a form and asking the driver or DLR
train captain to sign each time I board a bus to acknowledge my
successful validation.

It would appear that I have NOTHING to hold as proof if I use Oyster.

In theory, it would appear that an inspector can say whatever he likes
and I have no comeback.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Richard Adamfi wrote:
It would appear that I have NOTHING to hold as proof if I use Oyster.

I supose if it goes to court as in the bus case, you could request the
CCTV tape which may well capture the fact you attempted to touch the
Oyster.

regards
HN28

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Adam Funk wrote:

Of course the bus company might have *accidentally* erased the tape by then.

However, if you request to see the CCTV but it is no longer available,
then the fact that you were willing to request the CCTV shows strong
evidence in your favour of your innocence.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Richard Adamfi wrote:


Adam Funk wrote:

Of course the bus company might have *accidentally* erased the tape by
then.

However, if you request to see the CCTV but it is no longer available,
then the fact that you were willing to request the CCTV shows strong
evidence in your favour of your innocence.

Good point.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

I don't know how what passes for our elected represenatives have
allowed such travesties of fundamental rights to come to pass.... er
perhaps I do...they are worse than useless. :-)

Roger



Roger

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"turbo" wrote in message
.uk...


I would like to be able to buy an Oyster reader (similar to that used
by inspectors) so I can check that my Oyster has been processed
correctly after boarding a bus or tram.

The problem is you have no proof that you have paid - at least if I had
an Oyster reader if I see a problem with my card I can try to validate
my Oyster Card again.

Just think what could happen with a contactless system to read the data on
the card , when it falls in the hands of those using it for fraudulent
reasons..
Just mingle in an underground train with the punters, and obtain all of
the personal data stored on it...

Is there a reason why you think that there is personal
data actually stored on the card.

Surely all it has on it is journey information/costs and some
reference back into a database so that it can be updated
when you add funds.

tim

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Roger R" wrote in message
. ..

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

Speeding is an absolute offense.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

tim

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

In article . ac.uk,
Alan J. Flavell writes
In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.
However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.

And in many other cases the defendant has to prove - at least on the
balance of probabilities - that a statutory defence applies.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

Speeding is an absolute offense.

"offence", in the UK.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

Speeding is an absolute offense.

"offence", in the UK.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

tim

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Hi Nick

Long time no hear. I'd forgotten that you'd moved down south to London.
Must go for a drink some time.

Jerry Alderson
(also at virgin dot net.)

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

The punter /may/ get the opportunity to pay the penalty fare, but
prosecution is another option available. Which option is used,
depends on circumstances, AIUI.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

In message , at 19:25:21 on Fri, 21 Oct
2005, "tim (moved to sweden)" remarked:

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

wossat? A load of hot air?
--
Roland Perry

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On 21 Oct 2005 07:01:38 -0700, "Richard Adamfi"
wrote:

However, if you request to see the CCTV but it is no longer available,
then the fact that you were willing to request the CCTV shows strong
evidence in your favour of your innocence.

Not if you were confident it wouldn't be available :-)

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

The punter /may/ get the opportunity to pay the penalty fare, but
prosecution is another option available.

But then the evidence of 'intent' is required.
It is the poster's contention that this wasn't required. This
is only true where the penalty applied is the penalty fare.

tim

Which option is used,
depends on circumstances, AIUI.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk...
In message , at 19:25:21 on Fri, 21 Oct
2005, "tim (moved to sweden)" remarked:

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

wossat? A load of hot air?

I have one to heat my house, don't you.

:-(

tim

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:42:42 +0100, "londoncityslicker"
wrote:


"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
roups.com...

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this



Reading all this has made me decide not to get an oyster card. Not
that I can use one as my daily journey into London starts from outside
zone 6.
I prefer a printed card with all journey details plainly displayed so
anyone can see that I have a valid ticket.



Dave

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:39:49 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:40:15 +0100 someone who may be Barry Salter
wrote this:-

I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Er, why should someone pay a "penalty" fare if they have already
paid the fare by a card gizmo?

She hadn't.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:38:20 on Fri, 21
Oct 2005, Chris remarked:
Well I saw the BBC London news report and the accused fare dodger
was quite emphatic that she offered to pay the penalty fare a
number of times, but the inspector just demanded her name and
address and confiscated the oyster card.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just try swiping the card again? I
assume it had some credit on it.

It had only 50p credit according to the inspector (as reported in tha
Standard), which I guess contributed to his suspicion that this was more
than just a failure to touch in properly.

Did anyone hear the passenger interviewed on radio (BBC London I think)
on Thursday evening? Someone who heard the broadcast thought she
admitted that she knew there wasn't enough credit on the card, but it
seems an unlikely thing for her to say.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:05:22 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:38:20 on Fri, 21
Oct 2005, Chris remarked:
Well I saw the BBC London news report and the accused fare dodger
was quite emphatic that she offered to pay the penalty fare a
number of times, but the inspector just demanded her name and
address and confiscated the oyster card.


So, what happens if the Bus card-reader is broken, and the driver
waves you on - happens a couple of times per month on the routes that
I use (308, 678). Take it I should insist on paying cash?

Regards
Mailto:
-dot-uk

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

So, what happens if the Bus card-reader is broken, and the driver
waves you on - happens a couple of times per month on the routes that
I use (308, 678). Take it I should insist on paying cash?

You can add the 8, 277 & 15 to that list and countless more probably.

The official TfL position is that you should pay the cash fare and request
a refund of the price difference from them...

Unless you were capped that day in which case you would be entitled to
a full refund.

Or if that journey was the last one that day and took you past a cap then
you would get a refund of any extra you paid in total beyond the cap.

Not a very elegant solution.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:36:59 +0100 someone who may be James Farrar
wrote this:-

Er, why should someone pay a "penalty" fare if they have already
paid the fare by a card gizmo?

She hadn't.

She presumably had, in her own mind. Remember that humans are not
machines.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:30:05 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

Er, why should someone pay a "penalty" fare if they have already
paid the fare by a card gizmo?

She hadn't.

She presumably had, in her own mind. Remember that humans are not
machines.

If, as has been reported, she had insufficient pre-pay on her card
anyway, the plot thickens. How many lies were told and strong words
exchanged BEFORE she offered to pay the penalty charge?

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"TKD" typed



So, what happens if the Bus card-reader is broken, and the driver
waves you on - happens a couple of times per month on the routes that
I use (308, 678). Take it I should insist on paying cash?

You can add the 8, 277 & 15 to that list and countless more probably.

And 302 & 305...

The official TfL position is that you should pay the cash fare and request
a refund of the price difference from them...

Unless you were capped that day in which case you would be entitled to
a full refund.

Or if that journey was the last one that day and took you past a cap then
you would get a refund of any extra you paid in total beyond the cap.

Not a very elegant solution.

Time-consuming above the line of duty IMHO...

Not that a punter's time *ever* counts for anything. I wonder how many
hours' work are lost because punters try phoning their
Council/bank/doctor/hospital and are put on 'hold' for ages or have to
redial 20 times to get through?

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Can I buy an Oyster reader?
 

"TKD" wrote in message
...

So, what happens if the Bus card-reader is broken, and the driver
waves you on - happens a couple of times per month on the routes that
I use (308, 678). Take it I should insist on paying cash?

You can add the 8, 277 & 15 to that list and countless more probably.

The official TfL position is that you should pay the cash fare and request
a refund of the price difference from them...

Unless you were capped that day in which case you would be entitled to
a full refund.

Or if that journey was the last one that day and took you past a cap then
you would get a refund of any extra you paid in total beyond the cap.

Not a very elegant solution.

Not a solution at all. How much of my time am I expected
to use up to receive my 40p refund?

If the transport company really think that this is reasonable
then the OFT really ought to have a look at their T&Cs and
tell them which ones to delete.

tim