wrote:

Is Oyster also not available on National Rail between West Brompton and
Earl's Court? What about a journey starting at Richmond and ending at
Stratford but via the North London Line? If none of these are possible,
then the whole thing is a massive con.

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

TfL advise in their publicity that a Day Travelcard may be better if
you use National Rail services.

Oyster Pre-Pay is only valid on the following National Rail lines:

Amersham to Marylebone
Finsbury Park to King's Cross/Moorgate
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (but not at Kilburn High Road/South
Hampstead)
Kentish Town to Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge
Liverpool Street to Walthamstow Central
Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters (but not at intermediate stations)
Richmond to Gunnersbury
Stratford to Canning Town
Stratford to Liverpool Street
Upminster to Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street via Barking (but not at
Forest Gate/Maryland)
West Ruislip/South Ruislip to Marylebone (but not at intermediate
stations)

TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia!

Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within
those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on
it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are
TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other?

Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason)
installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason,
then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at
our expense, no doubt)?

On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to
travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR
instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate
station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay
upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey?

Marc.

Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within
those zones?

It would have the same validity on Oyster as on paper. No difference.

But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on
it?

You can't put one day travelcards on it.

Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are
TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other?

Because they have to accept the travelcards under their existing relationship
with London Underground but do not have to accept prepay unless they
decide to. And they have decided not to.

Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason)
installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason,
then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at
our expense, no doubt)?

He has offered to pay for installation. They have still said no.

TKD,

Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what
the TFL website says:-

"During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you
will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard
price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will
refund the difference. "

I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say
Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the
equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is
that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on
Prepay?

Marc.

Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what
the TFL website says:-

"During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you
will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard
price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will
refund the difference. "

I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say
Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the
equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is
that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on
Prepay?

Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some
National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, wrote:

On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to
travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR
instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate
station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay
upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey?

Yes. This is exactly the same situation as if you had some sort of NR mega
granny discount ticket from London to Glasgow which didn't allow break of
journey, and got off at Crewe, or if you went back in time a couple of
years, bought an LT card, went to Tottenham Hale, headed off for Seven
Sisters on an NR train (not sure why you'd do this, since you have to go
via Hackney and it'd be faster to walk, probably, but it's your choice!),
and got off an an intermediate station.

All, surprising as it may seem, acts of heinous villainy according to the
rulebook, but not really an invention of Ken's.

tom

--
Plus, you gotta understand I can now type far, far faster than I can
think. This is not boasting - its admitting a personal tragedy. -- D

On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, " wrote:

TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia!

Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within
those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on
it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are
TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other?

Travelcards are legally protected products and existed at the time of
privatisation. Therefore the TOCs have no choice and neither does TfL -
the product exists and is protected. Where the ticket medium changes
then the party proposing the change to the medium has to pay. TfL has
done this to the extent that it is required to do - i.e. at its own
outlets and those which can be reasonably be said to be part of the LU
network e.g. Richmond.

However the introduction of Oyster has not removed the possibility of
using magnetic tickets and this is why the TOCs can continue to issue
these tickets. However they are also required to accept the new Oyster
format for Travelcard and for this function TfL funded hand held readers
for TOC revenue inspection staff.

Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason)
installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason,
then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at
our expense, no doubt)?

The real problem with the One Day product is that TfL has chosen to
implement this facility using Pre-Pay and Capping. While this is fairly
elegant in theory it is, in my view, fairly awful in its execution. By
opting to use a new product and a new concept it causes One Day (capped)
tickets to be outside the scope of the Travelcard agreement. This gives
the TOCs the perfect opportunity to escape the adoption of Pre Pay.
Worse the use of capping also effectively demands the adoption of a
unified zonal fares scheme in order for the scheme to be equitable. If
you simply applied capping to the current fares scales it would be
almost impossible to administer on NR territory given the much higher
fares at certain times and then the greater complexity of off peak
offers.

TfL have offered to fund the introduction of validators, targets on
gates and ticket machine mods. The TOCs are not convinced that their
revenue base will not be adversely affected and as revenue and some
costs are all they control you can understand why. If zonal fares are
ever adopted by the TOCs you can be sure there will be huge compensation
payments sitting in the background.

It's all a mess as far as I can see and was not what was intended when I
was involved with Prestige. The TOCs were unconvinced then and I don't
see that anything has changed to make them any more enthusiastic now.

TfL's publicity on Oyster is woeful and it is no wonder that so many
people are hopelessly confused as to what product is valid where. Even
the most basic rules of the card and its products are not explained in
any of the published fares documents that I have seen. The constant
references to Day Travelcards in connection with Pre-Pay is also wrong
and is something that TfL have already been clobbered about by the ASA.
Why they continue to use the same terms in official publications I do
not know.

On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to
travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR
instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate
station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay
upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey?

You would have an unresolved journey as you would be unable to validate
your ticket on exit at the intermediate station. If a revenue inspector
caught you then you would be travelling with an invalid ticket as prepay
is not valid for that journey via National Rail or at the intermediate
point. As someone else has said it is a simple case of not having a
valid ticket - there is nothing unusual in this as there are plenty of
examples of tickets not being valid at particular places at particular
times.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, " wrote:

TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia!

Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within
those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on
it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are
TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other?

Travelcards are legally protected products and existed at the time of
privatisation. Therefore the TOCs have no choice and neither does TfL -
the product exists and is protected. Where the ticket medium changes
then the party proposing the change to the medium has to pay. TfL has
done this to the extent that it is required to do - i.e. at its own
outlets and those which can be reasonably be said to be part of the LU
network e.g. Richmond.

However the introduction of Oyster has not removed the possibility of
using magnetic tickets and this is why the TOCs can continue to issue
these tickets. However they are also required to accept the new Oyster
format for Travelcard and for this function TfL funded hand held readers
for TOC revenue inspection staff.

Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason)
installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason,
then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at
our expense, no doubt)?

The real problem with the One Day product is that TfL has chosen to
implement this facility using Pre-Pay and Capping. While this is fairly
elegant in theory it is, in my view, fairly awful in its execution. By
opting to use a new product and a new concept it causes One Day (capped)
tickets to be outside the scope of the Travelcard agreement. This gives
the TOCs the perfect opportunity to escape the adoption of Pre Pay.
Worse the use of capping also effectively demands the adoption of a
unified zonal fares scheme in order for the scheme to be equitable. If
you simply applied capping to the current fares scales it would be
almost impossible to administer on NR territory given the much higher
fares at certain times and then the greater complexity of off peak
offers.

TfL have offered to fund the introduction of validators, targets on
gates and ticket machine mods. The TOCs are not convinced that their
revenue base will not be adversely affected and as revenue and some
costs are all they control you can understand why. If zonal fares are
ever adopted by the TOCs you can be sure there will be huge compensation
payments sitting in the background.

It's all a mess as far as I can see and was not what was intended when I
was involved with Prestige. The TOCs were unconvinced then and I don't
see that anything has changed to make them any more enthusiastic now.

TfL's publicity on Oyster is woeful and it is no wonder that so many
people are hopelessly confused as to what product is valid where. Even
the most basic rules of the card and its products are not explained in
any of the published fares documents that I have seen. The constant
references to Day Travelcards in connection with Pre-Pay is also wrong
and is something that TfL have already been clobbered about by the ASA.
Why they continue to use the same terms in official publications I do
not know.

On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to
travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR
instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate
station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay
upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey?

You would have an unresolved journey as you would be unable to validate
your ticket on exit at the intermediate station. If a revenue inspector
caught you then you would be travelling with an invalid ticket as prepay
is not valid for that journey via National Rail or at the intermediate
point. As someone else has said it is a simple case of not having a
valid ticket - there is nothing unusual in this as there are plenty of
examples of tickets not being valid at particular places at particular
times.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Thanks for a sensible explanation of pre pay Oyster wrt National Rail. Other
potential difficulties must be various Railcards, with their huge variety of
rules, and First Class availability on some routes?

Paul

Paul Corfield,

Many thanks for the explanation.

As a lawyer, used to some pretty complicated concepts, I still find the
whole Oyster thing mind-boggling, and the more I learn about it (to say
nothing of having to explain to some jobsworth where I got on and where
I am going to, should the reader have failed to register my Oyster, and
the traceability of my journey, which is nobody's business but mine)
the less I want to have to do with it. I'll still be buying One Day
Travelcards at my corner shop for the foreseeable future. Much simpler
all round - and simple proof of payment for the taxman.

Marc.

In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote:

Is Oyster also not available on National Rail between West Brompton
and Earl's Court? What about a journey starting at Richmond and
ending at Stratford but via the North London Line? If none of these
are possible, then the whole thing is a massive con.

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant.

TfL advise in their publicity that a Day Travelcard may be better if
you use National Rail services.

And if going from Cambridge to London (without a Network Card) it is now the same price to use a day return to London and pre-pay capping, as long as you stay within Zones 1 to 4 (which I invariably do on such trips) or, if you stay within Zones 1 and 2, it is actually cheaper. For many trips the cap won't be reached of course.

This is because tube fares have gone up much more sharply than TOC fares this year as for several years. The all-zones premium for the tube over the cheap day return fare to London has gone from £1 in 2001 to £4.90 in 2006, a startling rate of inflation.

Maybe I'll get an Oyster after all. A bike is better though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel