On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based
Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs would
either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines similar to
those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents).

I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far easier
to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype
smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The
option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously
frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement
Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting
standards for retailing.

The TOCs and their chosen suppliers have simply opted not to spend the
money (that TfL was ready to provide) or enter into the appropriate
agreements to allow software to be written that could interface with a
generically supplied read / write Oyster target. After all the ticket
machine simply has to recognise a card is present, accept the sale
requirement, encode it to the card, receive confirmation that the
transaction is complete on the card and then complete its own
transaction. Easy stuff.

Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the
absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I
experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think I
had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains.
These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were both
people who could see the opportunities the technology would provide and
how it linked to other things that were happening in the wider IT,
Internet and retail markets.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based
Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs
would either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines
similar to those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents).

I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far
easier to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype
smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The
option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously
frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement
Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting
standards for retailing.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But apparently not. Again, see Modern
Railways.

The TOCs and their chosen suppliers have simply opted not to spend the
money (that TfL was ready to provide) or enter into the appropriate
agreements to allow software to be written that could interface with a
generically supplied read / write Oyster target. After all the ticket
machine simply has to recognise a card is present, accept the sale
requirement, encode it to the card, receive confirmation that the
transaction is complete on the card and then complete its own
transaction. Easy stuff.

Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the
absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I
experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think
I had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains.
These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were
both people who could see the opportunities the technology would
provide and how it linked to other things that were happening in the
wider IT, Internet and retail markets.

It's politics alright, but not the sort you're thinking of. See my other
posts on this.

The risk of supplier lock-in is a very valid one when the general
taxpayer is paying, IMHO.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based
Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs
would either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines
similar to those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents).

I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far
easier to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype
smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The
option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously
frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement
Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting
standards for retailing.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But apparently not. Again, see Modern
Railways.

Yes I have read Roger Ford in Modern Railways. I still don't agree that
things are as he puts them. He isn't always right you know. The
technology is not the issue at all here.

Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the
absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I
experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think
I had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains.
These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were
both people who could see the opportunities the technology would
provide and how it linked to other things that were happening in the
wider IT, Internet and retail markets.

It's politics alright, but not the sort you're thinking of. See my other
posts on this.

The risk of supplier lock-in is a very valid one when the general
taxpayer is paying, IMHO.

However neither you nor Roger Ford negotiated the IPR and licensing
provisions in the Prestige Contract. I did so I know what is possible if
only people had the will to do something about it.

ITSO was but a glint in someone's eye when we were negotiating the
contract and it was impossible to make provision for something that was
not necessarily even going to happen. LT (as was) could not wait for
what is now 7 years while other people eventually get round to devising
a common standard. Even GMPTE, who were supposed to be the smartcard
leaders for multiple application cards, had no idea where they were
going. I don't see a Smartcard scheme in operation in the Greater
Manchester area!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

However neither you nor Roger Ford negotiated the IPR and licensing
provisions in the Prestige Contract. I did so I know what is possible
if only people had the will to do something about it.

Fair enough but doesn't that require the DfT to pay TfL's pound of flesh?

--
Colin Rosenstiel