d wrote in
:

Fine, but HEX should not display signs which imply that their
tickets are the only ones which are valid on the route and that,
despite advance information to the contrary, travelcards or other
London Underground tickets are not valid. If such signs are normally
displayed, they should be covered or turned off during times when LT
tickets are valid.

Why not? It's up to TfL to tell its customers that they can use HEx,
not for HEx to tell everyone they can buy cheaper tickets from TfL. I
thought that would be obvious.

I can understand HEx not publicising the fact that there are cheaper fares
available, although I'd have thought that there might be similar rules to
the "Other listings magazines are available" caption that you often get on
BBC trailers about Radio Times.

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that TfL has
provided is very different. That's not just witholding information. It's
lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to believe: TfL who say that their
tickets are being accepted on HEx trains or HEx who say that travel cards
are not being accepted.

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

Fine, but HEX should not display signs which imply that their
tickets are the only ones which are valid on the route and that,
despite advance information to the contrary, travelcards or other
London Underground tickets are not valid. If such signs are normally
displayed, they should be covered or turned off during times when LT
tickets are valid.

Why not? It's up to TfL to tell its customers that they can use HEx,
not for HEx to tell everyone they can buy cheaper tickets from TfL. I
thought that would be obvious.

I can understand HEx not publicising the fact that there are cheaper fares
available, although I'd have thought that there might be similar rules to
the "Other listings magazines are available" caption that you often get on
BBC trailers about Radio Times.

Yes, if HEx was publicly-owned like the BBC. Just like HMV don't have to
say "It's cheaper at Virgin Megastores", HEx don't have to say "You can use
our service for less - just go buy a TfL ticket and take advantage of us
doing a favour for the travelling public".

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that TfL has
provided is very different. That's not just witholding information. It's
lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to believe: TfL who say that
their tickets are being accepted on HEx trains or HEx who say that travel
cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they can be
held legally responsible for the content of those signs, especially when HEx
are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and when
the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will* be
affected. By displaying those signs, they are making passengers think that
they have no option but to buy a more expensive ticket, when passengers *do*
have the option of buying a cheaper ticket.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission: they
have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that travelcards
are accepted. But by failing to remove those signs, they are making people
pay extra for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.s

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will*
be affected. By displaying those signs, they are making passengers think
that they have no option but to buy a more expensive ticket, when
passengers *do* have the option of buying a cheaper ticket.

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give a
TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx ticket.
Up until then, they're not breaking any laws. Technically speaking, they
only buy the TfL ticket if they intended to travel by underground. If you
intended to travel by HEx all along, you should (morally, ethically,
whatever) buy a HEx ticket. Taking advantage of others doing favours for
people isn't exactly nice, but I'm sure you don't have a problem with that


Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted. But by failing to remove those signs, they are
making people pay extra for something that they don't need to and thus
laying themselves open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off
passengers.s

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

d wrote:
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
By failing to remove those signs, they are making people pay extra
for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.

No, as the signs are information signs only.

Why are you content that these signs misinform in these circumstances?
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309736.html
(08 647 at Birmingham New Street, May 1979)

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
d wrote:
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
By failing to remove those signs, they are making people pay extra
for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.

No, as the signs are information signs only.

Why are you content that these signs misinform in these circumstances?

Because signs are often wrong. Just like you can have a price in a shop
window that doesn't represent the price of the goods inside - it's not great
for customers, but it's not illegal.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309736.html
(08 647 at Birmingham New Street, May 1979)

In message , d
writes

Just like you can have a price in a shop window that doesn't represent
the price of the goods inside - it's not great for customers, but it's
not illegal.

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 to indicate a
price for goods or services which is lower than the one that actually
applies.

--
Paul Terry

"d" wrote in message
. ..
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion. The
infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.


Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will*
be affected. .

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give a
TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx ticket.
Up until then, they're not breaking any laws.

I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and sales.
The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted.

I would like to think so, but am prepared to believe the contrary

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The signs may
be for information but they have to be accurate.

Roger C

"Roger" wrote in message
...

"d" wrote in message
. ..
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion. The
infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.

But it's not important. The ticket inspector isn't going to look at that
sign for whether he should accept TfL cards or not, is he? He's told in the
morning "you can accept TfL tickets", and goes from there. I can appreciate
the sign is wrong, I just don't think it's that important. Especially as
TfL have instructed you that you CAN use their tickets on HEx.


Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets
*will* be affected. .

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give
a TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx
ticket. Up until then, they're not breaking any laws.

I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and sales.
The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't. If the ticket inspector said that, then
yes, but a sign - nope.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted.

I would like to think so, but am prepared to believe the contrary

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The signs
may be for information but they have to be accurate.

They should be accurate, but they don't legally have to be. There is no law
demanding 100% accurate signage.

Roger C

d wrote:

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion.
The infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.

But it's not important.

Of course it's important. It's important to any passenger who reads the
sign, believes what it says, and ends up either getting a slow bus into
London or buying a HEX ticket despite already having a valid Travelcard.

The ticket inspector isn't going to look at
that sign for whether he should accept TfL cards or not, is he?

Who mentioned ticket inspectors? They've got nothing to do with it. The
sign is there for the passengers, not the ticket inspectors. And it's
giving wrong information to the passengers. Are you saying that's a good
thing?


I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and
sales. The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't. If the ticket inspector said that,
then yes, but a sign - nope.

Are you sure? Can you quote the relevant section of the Trades
Descriptions Act? I'd love to know where it mentions that ticket
inspectors are the only legal source of information about ticket
validity. Especially since you shouldn't normally see a ticket inspector
until AFTER you've bought a ticket.


Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The
signs may be for information but they have to be accurate.

They should be accurate, but they don't legally have to be. There is
no law demanding 100% accurate signage.


The s15(4) Theft Act 1968 defines the Criminal Deception as, "any
deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to
fact or as to law, including a deception as to the present intentions of
the person using the deception or any other person." IANAL but I think
this might qualify.

--