d wrote:
wrote in message
...
d wrote:

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion.
The infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.

But it's not important.

Of course it's important. It's important to any passenger who reads
the sign, believes what it says, and ends up either getting a slow
bus into London or buying a HEX ticket despite already having a
valid Travelcard.

But TfL would have told the customers that their cards are valid.
That's the important part.


And when they've seen the HEX signs, do you really expect the passengers
to carry their heavy suitcases all the way back to the TfL ticket office
just to confirm this? You're living in a fantasy land...

Who mentioned ticket inspectors? They've got nothing to do with it.
The sign is there for the passengers, not the ticket inspectors. And
it's giving wrong information to the passengers. Are you saying
that's a good thing?

Ticket inspectors have everything to do with it, as they are the
people who would charge TfL card-carriers if they didn't know the
rules.

But passengers don't see the ticket inspectors until AFTER buying the
tickets.

A typical sequence of events might go something like this:

1. A passenger arrives at HEX ticket office.

2. The passenger sees the sign saying travelcards aren't valid.

3. Despite having a travelcard, the passenger buys a HEX ticket anyway.

4. Now the passenger leaves the ticket office and starts heading towards
the platforms.

5. The passenger sees a ticket inspector either at the platform entrance
or on the train.

6. The passenger shows the HEX ticket to the inspector. The passenger
doesn't show the travelcard because that "isn't valid".

7. The inspector never sees the travelcard so never tells the passenger
that it is valid after all.

You see, ticket inspectors have nothing to do with it. I don't know why
you keep dragging them in except maybe as a straw man.

I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and
sales. The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't. If the ticket inspector said that,
then yes, but a sign - nope.

Are you sure? Can you quote the relevant section of the Trades
Descriptions Act? I'd love to know where it mentions that ticket
inspectors are the only legal source of information about ticket
validity. Especially since you shouldn't normally see a ticket
inspector until AFTER you've bought a ticket.

The ticket inspectors are the people who would tell you whether your
ticket is valid or not. They are the agents of the company, they are
the people executing company policy, not the sign.


You haven't answered my question. Can you quote the relevant section of
the Trades Descriptions Act?

Besides, as you've just admitted: The ticket inspectors tell you whether
your ticket is valid or not. They don't sell you your ticket in the
first place. By the time you see a ticket inspector, it's too late.

They should be accurate, but they don't legally have to be. There
is no law demanding 100% accurate signage.

The s15(4) Theft Act 1968 defines the Criminal Deception as,

Oops. Typo. I should have said "S 15(4) of the Theft Act 1968".
Sorry.

"any
deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to
fact or as to law, including a deception as to the present
intentions of the person using the deception or any other person."
IANAL but I think this might qualify.

IANAL but I don't think it qualifies at all. Fair enough if the
ticket inspector said "No, sorry, your TfL travel card is not valid,
I'm going to ask you to buy a HEx ticket or leave". As, after all,
the sign isn't forcing anyone to do anything. The ticket inspectors
do that.


Where does that law mention "forcing anyone to do anything"? Hint: It
doesn't. It mentions "any deception...by words or conduct". Got that?
ANY deception, and there's no small print saying "It doesn't count if
you write the words on a sign."

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:45:38 -0000, wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
A typical sequence of events might go something like this:

1. A passenger arrives at HEX ticket office.

2. The passenger sees the sign saying travelcards aren't valid.

3. Despite having a travelcard, the passenger buys a HEX ticket anyway.

No, sorry, your argument fails there. The typical passenger arriving
at the HEx ticket office isn't going have a ticket - that's why
they're at the ticket office.

The rest of your argument now also fails.

[...]
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

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Ross wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:45:38 -0000, wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
A typical sequence of events might go something like this:

1. A passenger arrives at HEX ticket office.

2. The passenger sees the sign saying travelcards aren't valid.

3. Despite having a travelcard, the passenger buys a HEX ticket anyway.

No, sorry, your argument fails there. The typical passenger arriving
at the HEx ticket office isn't going have a ticket - that's why
they're at the ticket office.

Even at Paddington?

I'd have thought a 'typical' passenger would arrive by rail (either
'mainline' or LU), and therefore be likely to have a travelcard.

I don't have any figures though, but even if it's not 'typical', I'm
sure many people would have been in this situation and may then have
seen signs saying 'travelcards not valid', and then bought full priced
tickets on top.

I used travel to Paddington on a Z1-6 travel card, which I used daily
to get from Angel to Barnehurst. When using Heathrow (often) I would
use this card to get to Paddington and then buy a HEX. I am sure I am
not unique in this sense.

When going to Heathrow and I am paying for tickets myself (i.e. not on
business) I take the tube to Heathrow, as I planned to last weekend. I
did spot that the Picadilly line was down on my way there, and that
Z1-6 travel cards were valid on the HEX. I was annoyed, since I went to
Paddington on my Oyster pre-pay (which I had intended to go to Heathrow
with) and then bought a Z1-6 paper ticket at Paddington, so I wasted a
single on my Oyster. I thought I should have been able to use my Oyster
on the HEX given the circumstances. I don't really care about the
technicalities why this may have not been possible - from a passenger
point of view I am railroaded into using Oyster and then later
penalised for using it.

On 20 Jan 2006 00:53:19 -0800, Yorkie wrote in
. com, seen in
uk.railway:
Ross wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:45:38 -0000, wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
A typical sequence of events might go something like this:

1. A passenger arrives at HEX ticket office.

2. The passenger sees the sign saying travelcards aren't valid.

3. Despite having a travelcard, the passenger buys a HEX ticket anyway.

No, sorry, your argument fails there. The typical passenger arriving
at the HEx ticket office isn't going have a ticket - that's why
they're at the ticket office.

Even at Paddington?

I'd have thought a 'typical' passenger would arrive by rail (either
'mainline' or LU), and therefore be likely to have a travelcard.

You're making the same mistake, I think.

If they're arriving at the *ticket office*, they're intending to buy a
ticket in the first place, which makes the argument being advanced
completely fallacious.

If they're arriving at the ticket barrier (if there is one) or on the
platform, then it's a different matter entirely.

[....]
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

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Ross wrote:

You're making the same mistake, I think.

If they're arriving at the *ticket office*, they're intending to buy a
ticket in the first place, which makes the argument being advanced
completely fallacious.

If they're arriving at the ticket barrier (if there is one) or on the
platform, then it's a different matter entirely.

The offending message, as I recall, appears on the PIS displays
throughout the station.

Neil

"Neil Williams" writes:

The offending message, as I recall, appears on the PIS displays
throughout the station.

Therefore making some people who already hold a 1-6 travelcard to
believe the signs rather than the advice they were given earlier and
unnecessarily purchase a HEX ticket.

On 20 Jan 2006 09:40:19 -0800, Neil Williams wrote in
om, seen in
uk.railway:
Ross wrote:

If they're arriving at the *ticket office*, they're intending to buy a
ticket in the first place, which makes the argument being advanced
completely fallacious.

If they're arriving at the ticket barrier (if there is one) or on the
platform, then it's a different matter entirely.

The offending message, as I recall, appears on the PIS displays
throughout the station.

The argument being made by Pippa specifically states that the
passenger doesn't see the sign until after they've arrived at the
ticket office:

A typical sequence of events might go something like this:
1. A passenger arrives at HEX ticket office.
2. The passenger sees the sign saying travelcards aren't valid.

I'm not arguing against the idea that HEx should remove the signs
saying "Travelcards are not valid" when they are being accepted; I'm
arguing against the validity of the specific sequence of events as
posted by Pippa.
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

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Neil Williams wrote:
Ross wrote:

You're making the same mistake, I think.

If they're arriving at the *ticket office*, they're intending to
buy a ticket in the first place, which makes the argument being
advanced completely fallacious.

If they're arriving at the ticket barrier (if there is one) or on
the platform, then it's a different matter entirely.

The ticket office for HEx is right by the HEx (platforms 6,7) barriers
at Paddington.

The offending message, as I recall, appears on the PIS displays
throughout the station.

I was at Paddington on Sunday afternoon 22 January, and the only sign I
saw that said "Travelcards not accepted" was on the platform display at
Platform 7. HEx had two staff there to give advice to passengers; one
of them implied that Network Rail had not changed the displays despite
being requested to do so by HEx. HEx ticket staff at both Paddington
and the two stations at Heathrow were advising passengers to buy
Travelcards, though I think at least some of them were acting on their
own initiative. LU staff were on hand at T123 station and in the
arrivals hall at T4 to advise passengers and sell them Travelcards.

My conclusion is that (yesterday at any rate) any blame for wrong
information lay with Network Rail.

Network Rail were also guilty of holding my airport-bound HEx just west
of Westbourne Park for 3 minutes to let an HST overtake it. I thought
that the superior acceleration of a 100 mph Class 332 HEx was supposed
to keep it clear of a following 125 mph HST until Airport Junction.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 02:11:14 GMT, Richard J. wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
Ross wrote:

If they're arriving at the *ticket office*, they're intending to
buy a ticket in the first place, which makes the argument being
advanced completely fallacious.

If they're arriving at the ticket barrier (if there is one) or on
the platform, then it's a different matter entirely.

The ticket office for HEx is right by the HEx (platforms 6,7) barriers
at Paddington.

The ticket office at Lincoln is right by the gate (well, arch leading)
to platform 5. There's still a difference between arriving at the
ticket office and arriving at the platform gate.


The offending message, as I recall, appears on the PIS displays
throughout the station.

I was at Paddington on Sunday afternoon 22 January, and the only sign I
saw that said "Travelcards not accepted" was on the platform display at
Platform 7. HEx had two staff there to give advice to passengers; one
of them implied that Network Rail had not changed the displays despite
being requested to do so by HEx. HEx ticket staff at both Paddington
and the two stations at Heathrow were advising passengers to buy
Travelcards, though I think at least some of them were acting on their
own initiative. LU staff were on hand at T123 station and in the
arrivals hall at T4 to advise passengers and sell them Travelcards.

So the people claiming otherwise have been making assumptions about
what was happening on the ground?
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

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