"Richard M Willis" wrote

Wasn't the Jubilee ("Fleet") Line originally expected to take over the
ELL,
being extended to Lewisham from NCG ?

Wasn't it also going to have an interchange at Aldwych ?

Now that the Jubilee line to "Charing Cross" is now only used for
TV adverts (apparently), is there any justification for keeping the
current
arrangement ?

It doesn't look right that there is a London Terminus that isn't on the
Circle
Line (or that it is, but it is called something other than the name of the
NR
station, towhit Embankment)

Why do we need two stations so close together on the Northern Line (on the
Bakerloo
Line, I could sort of understand it if it were renamed Trafalgar Square,
and
shewn
as a walking route to Charing Cross NR)

IIRC the intention, when the Jubilee Line was being constructed in the
1970s, was indeed that it would be extended to Lewisham. It would have
remained north of the River to somewhere around Tower Bridge, then
interchange with the ELL at Surrey Docks (now Surrey Quays) before taking
over the New Cross branch of the ELL and extending to Lewisham. There was
also talk of extending it over the Bexleyheath Line. The ELL would have
continued, but running only to New Cross Gate.

IMO Charing Cross (Northern Line and Bakerloo Line) are necessary, as they
give a much better interchange with Charing Cross Main Line station than
Embankment, though Embankment (Northern Line and Bakerloo Line) are of
course needed for interchange with the District and Circle Lines.

Peter

"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in message

Then, the Wimbleware trains could be extended to Baker Street for
reversal. The Met. could run right thru to Barking, or beyond.
Edgware Rd would retain its layout. Circle Line trains would be held
there so as to maintain a clock face service.

*Can* you reverse trains from the Wimbleware line at Baker street ?
Where is the crossover ? Is there one betwixt there and GPS ?

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Richard M Willis wrote:
"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in
message

Then, the Wimbleware trains could be extended to Baker Street for
reversal. The Met. could run right thru to Barking, or beyond.
Edgware Rd would retain its layout. Circle Line trains would be held
there so as to maintain a clock face service.

*Can* you reverse trains from the Wimbleware line at Baker street ?
Where is the crossover ? Is there one betwixt there and GPS ?

It wouldn't be easy. There *is* a crossover just east of Baker Street
Junction that can be used for reversing trains. However, you'd have Mets
coming off the Met main and heading for Barking and Circles conflicting with
turning back Wimblewares, sitting for several minutes blocking the route
whilst the driver changed ends. Sounds like a recipe for chaos to me.

Jack Taylor wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
I don't think running the new H&C in this manner would be any more
confusing than now. The next station for any given train can already
be any of the three you mentioned, and the only difference to the
current situation would be that trains to Gloucester Road and beyond
would depart from the same platforms as the Wimbledon service.

In fact, it's slightly less complicated than the current situation.
Currently, the outermost platform is for Baker St, the middle two
platforms are for Earl's Court and the innermost platform is for
Gloucester Road or Hammersmith. That means that trains to Notting Hill
Gate can depart from three different platforms.

If the new pattern runs as it should, then it would be outermost
platform for Baker Street, middle two platforms for Notting Hill Gate
/ Paddington (Praed St) and innermost platform for Hammersmith and
Paddington (Bishops Rd). Trains to Paddington can depart from as many
platforms as now, but trains to NHG only depart from two instead of
three platforms.

Personally, I would have thought that it could have been even better
rationalised.

Instead of taking incoming H&Cs round the Circle and then back up to Edgware
Road would it not have been better to take them from Gloucester Road to
Earls Court and out to Wimbledon on the current Wimbleware service (also
worked by C-stock at present)? The service on the west side of the current
Circle/District line through Paddington and High Street Kensington could
then be worked either by a self-contained Edgware Road to Kensington Olympia
service, replacing the High Street Ken shuttle, and an Edgware Road to
Mansion House or Tower Hill service.

I think you then have too many trains between Gloucester Road and Tower
Hill - all the Districts, plus all the new H&Cs, *plus* your Edgware Rd
to Mansion House service.

You might theoretically be able to reinstate a track between Gloucester
Road and South Kensington, using the disused platforms at those
stations, and run a South Kensington - Edgware Road service - but I'm
sure that track arrangement has been discussed on here before
unfruitfully...

You would also end up forcing more passengers to make changes to reach
their destinations, especially on flows like Victoria - Paddington or
Victoria - NHG.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS wrote:
Peter Smyth wrote:
How feasible would it be to segregate the lines at Edgware Road by having
the through trains to/from Hammersmith using the north island and the
terminating trains from Bayswater using the south island? This would remove
all conflicting moves in this area.

Peter Smyth

That would not help. The pair of tracks from Paddington Mainline and
the pair from Bayswater merge on a flat junction well before Edgware
Road, IIRC.

In the long term I would like to see CrossRail take over the
Hammersmith Branch. Four long TPH should suffice. Some judicious
re-organization of the intermediate stations should ensure we have
stops at sensible intervals. That would sure beat reversing trains at
Paddington.

I had this sentiment too (see my earlier post) but 4tph would be a
terrible service! It might have the passenger capacity but the current
7-8tph frequency of the H&C is already low by inner London standards and
irritating. This section of the H&C not only serves flows to and from
the City, but to and from Hammersmith, and for various parts of West
London to Shepherd's Bush / Ladbroke Grove. A 4tph service would also be
more unattractive to shoppers going to White City.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Peter Masson wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote
Yes but at least there will be the opportunity to regain times. I suspect
for similar reasons Orbirail will not feature a regular full circuit
service.

AIUI Orbirail will be Clapham Junction - SLL - ELL - NLL - WLL -Clapham
Junction, so trains will have to reverse at Clapham Junction, and would
probably alternate clockwise and counter-clockwise routes.

I reckon it's more likely that Orbirail services would be divided into
two: CJ - Camden Road - Stratford via the WLL/NLL, and Caledonian Rd -
Canada Water - CJ via the ELL. Same- or cross-platform interchange would
be available at CJ and at Caledonian Rd etc.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Richard M Willis wrote:
"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in message

Then, the Wimbleware trains could be extended to Baker Street for
reversal. The Met. could run right thru to Barking, or beyond.
Edgware Rd would retain its layout. Circle Line trains would be held
there so as to maintain a clock face service.

*Can* you reverse trains from the Wimbleware line at Baker street ?
Where is the crossover ? Is there one betwixt there and GPS ?

Wel no, currently it cannot be done. However, in the big picture, when
re-organizing post CrossRail, putting in a scissors crossover and some
new signals west of Baker Street would be a small investment.

Adrian.

Jack Taylor wrote:
Richard M Willis wrote:
"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in
message

Then, the Wimbleware trains could be extended to Baker Street for
reversal. The Met. could run right thru to Barking, or beyond.
Edgware Rd would retain its layout. Circle Line trains would be held
there so as to maintain a clock face service.

*Can* you reverse trains from the Wimbleware line at Baker street ?
Where is the crossover ? Is there one betwixt there and GPS ?

It wouldn't be easy. There *is* a crossover just east of Baker Street
Junction that can be used for reversing trains. However, you'd have Mets
coming off the Met main and heading for Barking and Circles conflicting with
turning back Wimblewares, sitting for several minutes blocking the route
whilst the driver changed ends. Sounds like a recipe for chaos to me.

So, post CrossRail, LU put a new crossover, preferably scissors, west
of Baker Street.

Adrian.

In article , Peter Masson
writes
IIRC the intention, when the Jubilee Line was being constructed in the
1970s, was indeed that it would be extended to Lewisham. It would have
remained north of the River to somewhere around Tower Bridge, then
interchange with the ELL at Surrey Docks (now Surrey Quays) before taking
over the New Cross branch of the ELL and extending to Lewisham.

The proposed stations we

Charing Cross, Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Cannon Street, Fenchurch Street,
St.Katherine's Dock, Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Docks, New Cross,
Lewisham.

It would have used the ELL tunnels to cross the Thames.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

The proposed stations we

Charing Cross, Aldwych, Ludgate Circus,

Was this going to be anywhere near Holborn Viaduct/City Thameslink? The lack
of a tube station round there has always surprised me.