Oyster fare evasion
 

I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no money
is deducted - no problem.

However if I decide to take the Victoria line then the District (going via
Zone 1) the Oystercard has no way of knowing how I got to Richmond so
presumably it cannot deduct any money in this case either.

Question: If I were to travel from Highbury to Richmond via Zone 1 on a
daily basis, knowing full well I was not being charged the correct fare, is
this fare evasion? Or could I say that as I am following the instructions by
touching in and out correctly it is not my fault that the money is not being
deducted correctly. With a paper ticket there is always the small risk of a
ticket inspection within zone 1, but if I have a validated Oyster with
sufficient Prepay on it there is nothing a ticket inspector could do.

Question 2: If I am honest and want to pay the extra £1.50 to go via zone 1,
how would I do this? The only way would seem to be to touch a validator on a
platform in zone 1, however there aren't any at most stations.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey. As the Oystercard can only know the start station and the end
station, it can only work properly when the fare from A-B is always
constant, regardless of the route you use between them. However this is not
consistent with London's zonal fare system.

Peter Smyth

Oyster fare evasion
 

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...
I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was
wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no
money
is deducted - no problem.

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

However, your example involves using a non-LUL line, the NLL, so I don't
know.

Oyster allows greater possibility for fare-evasion because you don't have
to have "the correct ticket BEFORE you travel": the money is only deducted
at the point of leaving the system. I've often gone from say, Baker street
to Krapy Rubsnif, to get a WAGN/FCC service, but could easily have not
touched-out
at the Krapy Rubsnif interchange (I already had a valid FCC/WAGN ticket)

so, indeed, how do they know ? All anyone can see who looks at the logs will
see "unresolved journey" without knowing whether it was a simple intra-Zone1
journey, or a Z1-Chalfont+L.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey.

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

However, as someone else here has suggested, TfL seems to be getting rid
of fare evasion by engineering it out of the system

As the Oystercard can only know the start station and the end
station, it can only work properly when the fare from A-B is always
constant, regardless of the route you use between them. However this is
not
consistent with London's zonal fare system.

Peter Smyth





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Oyster fare evasion
 

Richard M Willis wrote:

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

I rather doubt this.

There were some trials with high-power readers on the current system,
but I heard it was causing the wrong barrier to activate so wasn't
practicable. Might have been an urban legend, though.

However, as someone else here has suggested, TfL seems to be getting rid
of fare evasion by engineering it out of the system

Which is the best way to do it. The paper fare structure is not
well-suited to Oyster.

I expect that NR validity within the Zones will be accompanied by the
integration of the NR and LUL fares structures within the Zones (a true
Verbundtarif), or at the very minimum a simplification of the NR fares
into a pure zonal system.

Neil

Oyster fare evasion
 

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:59:52 +0100, Richard M Willis wrote:

I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was
wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no
money
is deducted - no problem.

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

Not necessarily. I gather that the system is hardcoded with the zones
required for a journey between each pair of stations. For example, it
reckons Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court requires Z12345. It thinks
Harrow-on-the-Hill to Ravenscourt Park requires Z2345. In the former
case, you'd be charged for going via Z1 even if you went via Rayners
Lane. In the latter case, you wouldn't be charged for going via Z1
even if you did (I don't know what happens if you go via Marylebone,
which involves an out-of-station interchange).

On p20 of the TfL 2006 fares leaflet, where it discusses Capping, it
says the following: "Some journeys have been defined as requiring
travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and capped accordingly,
irrespective of the actual route taken."

Oyster allows greater possibility for fare-evasion because you don't have
to have "the correct ticket BEFORE you travel": the money is only deducted
at the point of leaving the system. I've often gone from say, Baker street
to Krapy Rubsnif, to get a WAGN/FCC service, but could easily have not
touched-out
at the Krapy Rubsnif interchange (I already had a valid FCC/WAGN ticket)

so, indeed, how do they know ? All anyone can see who looks at the logs will
see "unresolved journey" without knowing whether it was a simple intra-Zone1
journey, or a Z1-Chalfont+L.

At some point they may start charging the maximum fare, or some kind
of penalty, for having an unresolved journey. At the moment it would
just be the Z1 fare, but they're already charging a £5.00 penalty for
every unresolved PAYG journey at the NR termini where PAYG is valid.

I was also told at an LU ticket office that your card might be
disabled if you have too many unresolved journeys.

Question: If I were to travel from Highbury to Richmond via Zone 1 on a
daily basis, knowing full well I was not being charged the correct fare, is
this fare evasion? Or could I say that as I am following the instructions by
touching in and out correctly it is not my fault that the money is not being
deducted correctly. With a paper ticket there is always the small risk of a
ticket inspection within zone 1, but if I have a validated Oyster with
sufficient Prepay on it there is nothing a ticket inspector could do.

Question 2: If I am honest and want to pay the extra £1.50 to go via zone 1,
how would I do this? The only way would seem to be to touch a validator on a
platform in zone 1, however there aren't any at most stations.

I don't think you could pay the "correct" fare even if you wanted to.
Even if you managed to find and touch a validator in Z1, I don't think
the system contains the logic to charge you the "correct" fare in this
case.

I'd like to know the answer to your first question, particularly in
light of this, but I think we're unlikely to get a definitive one.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey.

Actually, it's sort of moving closer to the current NR system, where
you pay a fixed fare to travel between two named stations, although
several routes may be available.

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

Better keep your Oyster card in a tin foil wrapper ;-)

Oyster fare evasion
 

Richard M Willis wrote:

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

So Earls Court to Notting Hill Gate will charge for Zones 2+3 not 1 because
one can travel via Ealing Broadway?

Oyster fare evasion
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Richard M Willis wrote:

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

So Earls Court to Notting Hill Gate will charge for Zones 2+3 not 1 because
one can travel via Ealing Broadway?

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined
as via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

I imagine the current fares system will be swept aside by something else
once Oyster becomes de facto for rail as well as LU.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

Richard M Willis wrote:
That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

Until the oyster card is kept in a wallet with tin foil in it.

Oyster fare evasion
 

Dave Arquati wrote:
No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

But what if touch the platform validator at ealing broadway en-route?

Oyster fare evasion
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
"Snip"

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that for
certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even if a
route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill Gate is
certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush (Central)
to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined as
via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

I imagine the current fares system will be swept aside by something else
once Oyster becomes de facto for rail as well as LU.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Is the list of these definitions published anywhere? I've not been able to
find it!

--

Mike Roberts

Oyster fare evasion
 

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:42:33 +0100, wrote:

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that for
certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even if a
route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill Gate is
certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush (Central)
to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined as
via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

Is the list of these definitions published anywhere? I've not been able to
find it!

If you look on the wall of your origin station, there should be a
table of "Fares From This Station" on a poster. (Alternatively, you
can use the ticket machine to check the fare to particular stations.)

The fare to each station should give you a clue as to which zones you
are expected to pass through.

I *assume* the Oyster system uses the same data and therefore charges
you (or not, as appropriate) for passing through the same combination
of zones.

Oyster fare evasion
 

Paul Weaver wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

But what if touch the platform validator at ealing broadway en-route?

Good point - but since that is intended for passengers transferring to
and from FGW, you might just end up with an unresolved journey (i.e.
Earl's Court to Ealing Bdy plus Unresolved - NHG) and would be charged
twice.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

On 15 Jun 2006 04:55:26 -0700, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

Richard M Willis wrote:
That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

Until the oyster card is kept in a wallet with tin foil in it.

And always make sure it is shiney-side outwards.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster fare evasion
 

In article , Richard M
Willis writes
That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

That's nonsense.

The power requirements to get back a readable signal from the card are
going to be enormous - it's something like inverse sixth power (I forget
why, but it was explained to me once).

And suppose you do that at a busy platform. How on earth is the system
going to discriminate between the 100 or so Oysters that respond?

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Oyster fare evasion
 

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In article , Richard M
Willis writes
That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

That's nonsense.

The power requirements to get back a readable signal from the card are
going to be enormous - it's something like inverse sixth power (I
forget why, but it was explained to me once).

And suppose you do that at a busy platform. How on earth is the system
going to discriminate between the 100 or so Oysters that respond?

It would also have implications for people carrying but not *using*
their Oystercards, eg when I have a paper Travelcard and am not using
the Oyster PrePay in my pocket. I sometimes do this if I've travelled
to London on a train+Travelcard ticket or if using NR services within
London. I'm sure there are other reasons, too.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Oyster fare evasion
 

Ian Jelf typed

It would also have implications for people carrying but not *using*
their Oystercards, eg when I have a paper Travelcard and am not using
the Oyster PrePay in my pocket. I sometimes do this if I've travelled
to London on a train+Travelcard ticket or if using NR services within
London. I'm sure there are other reasons, too.

Here's one.

I have a Disabled Person's Freedom Pass, with which I travel.

I keep a Prepay Oyster in my bag to lend to friends from out of town. I
don't want deductions from that Oyster *unless* someone else is using
it.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Oyster fare evasion
 

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 20:04:06 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

But what if touch the platform validator at ealing broadway en-route?

Good point - but since that is intended for passengers transferring to
and from FGW, you might just end up with an unresolved journey (i.e.
Earl's Court to Ealing Bdy plus Unresolved - NHG) and would be charged
twice.

I'm not sure that's what would happen. The logic used by some
validators is a bit more complicated - they can either act as entry,
exit, or neither, depending on what's already on the card (and perhaps
what validators, if any, you touch later on).

The notice by the platform validators usually just asks all passing
PAYG users to touch their card on the reader, regardless of whether or
not they're starting/ending the journey, so it "ought" to do the right
thing in all scenarios. But I'm not sure if this one will be catered
for.

My bet is that you'd simply end up with an Earl's Court to NHG journey
at the usual (Z1) fare. But I think we'll only know for sure if
someone actually goes out and tries it...

Oyster fare evasion
 

Transport for London created a system that by its nature lends itself
to exploitation by opportunists, ie fare evaders!

This isn't Japan or Singapore. People will have a go if they feel they
can gain an advantage.

The only advantage is that drivers carry less cash and much the money
paid on the spot for a journey is left in a machine by the bus stop.

Not too sure, but the amount of incidents of people being done for fare
evasion is setting a mini record.

Well done, TfL............

Oyster fare evasion
 

Me
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance
of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

CDWF That's nonsense.
No kidding.

The power requirements to get back a readable signal from the card are
going to be enormous - it's something like inverse sixth power (I forget
why, but it was explained to me once).

And suppose you do that at a busy platform. How on earth is the system
going to discriminate between the 100 or so Oysters that respond?

Think your sarcasm detector has had a bad day.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Oyster fare evasion
 

Peter Smyth wrote:
If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no money
is deducted - no problem.

However if I decide to take the Victoria line then the District (going via
Zone 1) the Oystercard has no way of knowing how I got to Richmond so
presumably it cannot deduct any money in this case either.

Question: If I were to travel from Highbury to Richmond via Zone 1 on a
daily basis, knowing full well I was not being charged the correct fare, is
this fare evasion?

In that case you would appear to have both evaded your fare and
overtravelled.

Fare evasion, under Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s.5(3)(a), is
defined: "travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having
previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof". If
you travel into zone 1 without paying for it then you have not paid the
fare for your journey.

Overtravelling, under Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s.5(3)(c), is
defined: "having paid his fare for a certain distance knowingly and
wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously
paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent
to avoid payment thereof". In this case you have a ticket for zone 2-6
so when you travel into zone 1 you commit this offence because you know
that the validity of your ticket stops at the zone 1-2 boundary.

However, proving either of these offences would be difficult.
Fortunately for people who do pay their fare and don't want fares to go
up because fare evasion cuts revenues, most of the London Underground
Revenue Control Inspectors are switched on.

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!


Pete

Oyster fare evasion
 

Oyster fare evasion
 

On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!

Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

Oyster fare evasion
 

asdf wrote:
On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!

Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?


More importantly, by what means could you be charged the correct fare?

It's bad enough that in order to be charged correctly for extensions,
you have to get off, go up the escalator, out the gate with your paper
season, in the gate with your Oyster, back down the escalator and wait
for the next train (why don't they have readers in trains?).

But the journey you describe seems to me to be a single journey
involving zones 1 to 4, the same as if you went from Woodford to
Perivale or something, which I think should cost £2.

Doing what you described you'd presumably be charged £1 (I don't know
if the time limit would really allow it).

If you got off during your trip round the Circle Line, touched out and
then touched in again, you would be charged for two trips involving
zones 1 to 4, which would come to £4.

So the correct fare seems not to be possible. Perhaps the answer is
not to do anything so strange.

Oyster fare evasion
 

asdf wrote:
On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/using/conditions.asp

I think the relevant passages a
--
10.1. If you are travelling on any of our services without either a
ticket that is valid and available for the journey you are making, or an
Oyster card containing a valid season ticket or when paying as you go, a
record of the start of your trip, or, if you are aged 14 or 15
travelling on a bus without a valid Child Oyster photocard, and we
believe that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare, you may be
prosecuted. If the court finds you guilty it can fine you up to £1000
(and/or send you to prison for up to three months, if you were
travelling on London Underground).

10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card.
--

So if you're using PAYG, as long as you are travelling with an Oyster
card holding a record of the start of the journey, then you have a valid
ticket. It's up to the system to charge the "correct" fare.

However, it seems as though if a ticket inspector stops you on an
eastbound Central line train to South Woodford, they might be
suspicious, and suspect you of defrauding TfL - but all they could do
would be to take away your Oyster card.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

asdf wrote:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example, but as Oyster charging appears to be
based only on entry and exit points I suppose it is strictly OK. Does
LUL have a concept of permitted/reasonable routes? While I realise it
wouldn't affect the fare per-se as the whole thing is in Zone 1, are
you allowed to go the "wrong way" round the Circle Line to travel one
stop, for example?

I've read the OP again and it related to a Travelcard rather than
pre-pay, though, which might change matters, as a TC is for now at
least a traditional zonal ticket.

Neil

Oyster fare evasion
 

On 20 Jun 2006 04:40:14 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example, but as Oyster charging appears to be
based only on entry and exit points I suppose it is strictly OK. Does
LUL have a concept of permitted/reasonable routes?

I don't believe so...

I've read the OP again and it related to a Travelcard rather than
pre-pay, though, which might change matters, as a TC is for now at
least a traditional zonal ticket.

Well, if it makes a difference, what if you had a Z4 Travelcard season
on the Oyster?

(I don't think it makes a difference, as you're allowed to travel out
of zone on a Travelcard on Oyster, provided you touch in/out, because
the extension will be charged automagically via PAYG.)

Oyster fare evasion
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for the
journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this happens,
they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower rent
from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each week or
banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to claim the
difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to because he'd left
the tenant with the impression that the rent had been paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head. So
if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the correct
fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example me,
arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million others). I
haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of the
complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put £60 on
the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out regardless of
the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost). As I speak
English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English speakers!. So I
hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak rate
24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Oyster fare evasion
 

Dave Arquati wrote:

However, it seems as though if a ticket inspector stops you on an
eastbound Central line train to South Woodford, they might be suspicious,
and suspect you of defrauding TfL - but all they could do would be to take
away your Oyster card.

How will the trainspotters cope?!

Oyster fare evasion
 

peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for the
journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this happens,
they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower rent
from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each week or
banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to claim the
difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to because he'd left
the tenant with the impression that the rent had been paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head. So
if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the correct
fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example me,
arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million others). I
haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of the
complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put £60 on
the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out regardless of
the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost). As I speak
English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English speakers!. So I
hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak rate
24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their events.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

Sorry, forgot to answer one point:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Oyster fare evasion
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

FWIW (not much), I accidentally paid too much rent (maybe about £1 a
month?) for about two years without noticing.

When I moved out, the landlord returned all of the accumulated extra £1s
along with my deposit. (I still hadn't noticed at this point.)

They didn't bother to tell me while I was doing it, mind you! :-)

Oyster fare evasion
 

asdf wrote:
Sorry, forgot to answer one point:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)


Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

Oyster fare evasion
 

MIG wrote:

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

Or here's a related one for that part of London. South Woodford to Newbury
Park can be done by changing at either Woodford (and travel through Zone 5)
or by changing at Leytonstone (and staying entirely in Zone 4). Either
involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?

Oyster fare evasion
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
MIG wrote:

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

Or here's a related one for that part of London. South Woodford to Newbury
Park can be done by changing at either Woodford (and travel through Zone 5)
or by changing at Leytonstone (and staying entirely in Zone 4). Either
involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


I guess that would only affect paper travelcards, because I think the
Oyster prepay fare is the same. I don't suppose if you had an Oyster
travelcard it would add £1 in prepay to the fare when you got out.

Oyster fare evasion
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


It *should* be free, just like they occasionally say your ticket is
valid on lonodn busses.

In actual fact (in the later case at least), you get charged, and they
can't deduct that charge at the tube station (despite the fact the guy
I asked was very helpful, and spent 10 minutes trying to do it)

Oyster fare evasion
 

Paul Weaver wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


It *should* be free, just like they occasionally say your ticket is
valid on lonodn busses.

In actual fact (in the later case at least), you get charged, and they
can't deduct that charge at the tube station (despite the fact the guy
I asked was very helpful, and spent 10 minutes trying to do it)

Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for
the journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this
happens, they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head.
So if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the
correct fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example
me, arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million
others). I haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of
the complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put
£60 on the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out
regardless of the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost).
As I speak English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English
speakers!. So I hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak
rate 24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their
events.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Glad to see you are continuing with that good idea .
cheers
Peter
Sydney

Oyster fare evasion
 

peter wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for
the journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this
happens, they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:
For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head.
So if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the
correct fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example
me, arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million
others). I haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of
the complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put
£60 on the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out
regardless of the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost).
As I speak English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English
speakers!. So I hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak
rate 24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)
Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their
events.

Glad to see you are continuing with that good idea .
cheers
Peter
Sydney

I think it's quite a common thing these days for big events - they are
doing the same in Germany for the World Cup.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Oyster fare evasion
 

Paul Weaver wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Ah, possibly not...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster fare evasion
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
Paul Weaver wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and
get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or
get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Ah, possibly not...

When I lost a registered Oyster Card and replaced it with an unregistered
one,
they pushed the credit from the old (canceled) one onto the new
(unregistered)
one at a named station.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com