I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no money
is deducted - no problem.

However if I decide to take the Victoria line then the District (going via
Zone 1) the Oystercard has no way of knowing how I got to Richmond so
presumably it cannot deduct any money in this case either.

Question: If I were to travel from Highbury to Richmond via Zone 1 on a
daily basis, knowing full well I was not being charged the correct fare, is
this fare evasion? Or could I say that as I am following the instructions by
touching in and out correctly it is not my fault that the money is not being
deducted correctly. With a paper ticket there is always the small risk of a
ticket inspection within zone 1, but if I have a validated Oyster with
sufficient Prepay on it there is nothing a ticket inspector could do.

Question 2: If I am honest and want to pay the extra £1.50 to go via zone 1,
how would I do this? The only way would seem to be to touch a validator on a
platform in zone 1, however there aren't any at most stations.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey. As the Oystercard can only know the start station and the end
station, it can only work properly when the fare from A-B is always
constant, regardless of the route you use between them. However this is not
consistent with London's zonal fare system.

Peter Smyth

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...
I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was
wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no
money
is deducted - no problem.

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

However, your example involves using a non-LUL line, the NLL, so I don't
know.

Oyster allows greater possibility for fare-evasion because you don't have
to have "the correct ticket BEFORE you travel": the money is only deducted
at the point of leaving the system. I've often gone from say, Baker street
to Krapy Rubsnif, to get a WAGN/FCC service, but could easily have not
touched-out
at the Krapy Rubsnif interchange (I already had a valid FCC/WAGN ticket)

so, indeed, how do they know ? All anyone can see who looks at the logs will
see "unresolved journey" without knowing whether it was a simple intra-Zone1
journey, or a Z1-Chalfont+L.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey.

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

However, as someone else here has suggested, TfL seems to be getting rid
of fare evasion by engineering it out of the system

As the Oystercard can only know the start station and the end
station, it can only work properly when the fare from A-B is always
constant, regardless of the route you use between them. However this is
not
consistent with London's zonal fare system.

Peter Smyth





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Richard M Willis wrote:

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

I rather doubt this.

There were some trials with high-power readers on the current system,
but I heard it was causing the wrong barrier to activate so wasn't
practicable. Might have been an urban legend, though.

However, as someone else here has suggested, TfL seems to be getting rid
of fare evasion by engineering it out of the system

Which is the best way to do it. The paper fare structure is not
well-suited to Oyster.

I expect that NR validity within the Zones will be accompanied by the
integration of the NR and LUL fares structures within the Zones (a true
Verbundtarif), or at the very minimum a simplification of the NR fares
into a pure zonal system.

Neil

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:59:52 +0100, Richard M Willis wrote:

I have been thinking about some flaws in the Oyster system and was
wondering
if anyone knew the legal situation in the following case.

If I have a zone 2-6 travelcard and travel from Highbury & Islington to
Richmond via the North London Line I am staying within my zones so no
money
is deducted - no problem.

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

Not necessarily. I gather that the system is hardcoded with the zones
required for a journey between each pair of stations. For example, it
reckons Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court requires Z12345. It thinks
Harrow-on-the-Hill to Ravenscourt Park requires Z2345. In the former
case, you'd be charged for going via Z1 even if you went via Rayners
Lane. In the latter case, you wouldn't be charged for going via Z1
even if you did (I don't know what happens if you go via Marylebone,
which involves an out-of-station interchange).

On p20 of the TfL 2006 fares leaflet, where it discusses Capping, it
says the following: "Some journeys have been defined as requiring
travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and capped accordingly,
irrespective of the actual route taken."

Oyster allows greater possibility for fare-evasion because you don't have
to have "the correct ticket BEFORE you travel": the money is only deducted
at the point of leaving the system. I've often gone from say, Baker street
to Krapy Rubsnif, to get a WAGN/FCC service, but could easily have not
touched-out
at the Krapy Rubsnif interchange (I already had a valid FCC/WAGN ticket)

so, indeed, how do they know ? All anyone can see who looks at the logs will
see "unresolved journey" without knowing whether it was a simple intra-Zone1
journey, or a Z1-Chalfont+L.

At some point they may start charging the maximum fare, or some kind
of penalty, for having an unresolved journey. At the moment it would
just be the Z1 fare, but they're already charging a £5.00 penalty for
every unresolved PAYG journey at the NR termini where PAYG is valid.

I was also told at an LU ticket office that your card might be
disabled if you have too many unresolved journeys.

Question: If I were to travel from Highbury to Richmond via Zone 1 on a
daily basis, knowing full well I was not being charged the correct fare, is
this fare evasion? Or could I say that as I am following the instructions by
touching in and out correctly it is not my fault that the money is not being
deducted correctly. With a paper ticket there is always the small risk of a
ticket inspection within zone 1, but if I have a validated Oyster with
sufficient Prepay on it there is nothing a ticket inspector could do.

Question 2: If I am honest and want to pay the extra £1.50 to go via zone 1,
how would I do this? The only way would seem to be to touch a validator on a
platform in zone 1, however there aren't any at most stations.

I don't think you could pay the "correct" fare even if you wanted to.
Even if you managed to find and touch a validator in Z1, I don't think
the system contains the logic to charge you the "correct" fare in this
case.

I'd like to know the answer to your first question, particularly in
light of this, but I think we're unlikely to get a definitive one.

I think that this problem will only get worse when Oyster is rolled out to
National Rail services as there will then be many possible routes for a
given journey.

Actually, it's sort of moving closer to the current NR system, where
you pay a fixed fare to travel between two named stations, although
several routes may be available.

That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

Better keep your Oyster card in a tin foil wrapper ;-)

Richard M Willis wrote:

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

So Earls Court to Notting Hill Gate will charge for Zones 2+3 not 1 because
one can travel via Ealing Broadway?

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Richard M Willis wrote:

It is my understanding that the Oyster Fare between any two stations on
the LUL network is the cheapest, even if you go out of zone to get there.
E.g. I've been told that Boston Manor to Uxbridge does not need to involve
zone 1 and so doesn't, even if you do go via Baker Street.

So Earls Court to Notting Hill Gate will charge for Zones 2+3 not 1 because
one can travel via Ealing Broadway?

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined
as via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

I imagine the current fares system will be swept aside by something else
once Oyster becomes de facto for rail as well as LU.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Richard M Willis wrote:
That's the reason it's not being rolled-out so quickly onto NR: they
are waiting for OysterNextGen where the cards can be read at a distance of
several meters without a touch in/out and without the passenger knowing
they've been read. In this way, they can check for invalid routings if
wanted.

Until the oyster card is kept in a wallet with tin foil in it.

Dave Arquati wrote:
No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that
for certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even
if a route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill
Gate is certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush
(Central) to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

But what if touch the platform validator at ealing broadway en-route?

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
"Snip"

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that for
certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even if a
route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill Gate is
certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush (Central)
to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined as
via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

I imagine the current fares system will be swept aside by something else
once Oyster becomes de facto for rail as well as LU.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Is the list of these definitions published anywhere? I've not been able to
find it!

--

Mike Roberts

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:42:33 +0100, wrote:

No - it's not technically as Richard said. All that is certain is that for
certain pairs of stations, journeys are defined as using Zone 1 even if a
route avoiding Z1 would be possible. Earl's Court to Notting Hill Gate is
certainly one of those cases. I have also tried Shepherd's Bush (Central)
to Parsons Green, which is also defined as via Zone 1.

Someone else mentioned Harrow-on-the-Hill to Barons Court being defined as
via Z1 but H-o-t-H to Ravenscourt Park *not* being defined in that way.

Is the list of these definitions published anywhere? I've not been able to
find it!

If you look on the wall of your origin station, there should be a
table of "Fares From This Station" on a poster. (Alternatively, you
can use the ticket machine to check the fare to particular stations.)

The fare to each station should give you a clue as to which zones you
are expected to pass through.

I *assume* the Oyster system uses the same data and therefore charges
you (or not, as appropriate) for passing through the same combination
of zones.