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2 jailed for railway graffiti
Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. Adrian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. Adrian. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Marc. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
wrote in message ups.com... Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. Adrian. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Marc. Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Solario" wrote in message oups.com... Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. Adrian. Nice to see a sensible response. Brian. PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/4421129.stm |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote in message ... Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. What do you suggest instead? -- Brian |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian
Begg-Robertson gently breathed: wrote in message oups.com... Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept of what a prison is for. Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Far better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner to run. -- - DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP! http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote:
Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation. It's when they are released that the problems arise. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. Adrian. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Marc. Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Brian. Well, I'd suggest that for the next year or so a lot more money will be saved by the Police, railway companies etc. in not having the clear up after these two every time they feel like airbrushing a train or two. In the limited sense (and I'm claiming no more) that prison keeps vandals from continuing their acts of wanton destruction (as well as any other crime) whilst they are off the streets, of course PRISON DOES WORK. Marc. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Phil McGlass wrote:
Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation. It's when they are released that the problems arise. That's like saying jumping off the top of a building is perfectly safe, the problems only arise when you hit the ground. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote: Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Brian. That's strange. Several years ago I personally arrested a number of youths who did graffiti damage to the tune of several £100.000s between them. Some went to prison some didn't. Those who went to prison have kept well away from railway property ever since. Those who were given a variety of CSOs erc carried on with their damage. In the REAL world, PRISON DOES WORK. George |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed it doesn't, just like community service doesn't, a slap on the wrist doesn't, trying to talk to them nicely and use psychology on them doesn't and so on. In fact, the only thing that does work is the death penalty - not necessarily deterring others, but stopping the convicted person from reoffending at least. I suspect even Daily Mail readers might consider killing someone for spray painting a train a little bit harsh (or maybe not). At least in prison, they're not doing any more harm to us. Maybe we need to keep them in longer, even if that will cost you and me even more? Or keep them inside but don't let them mix with others (making it a VERY harsh environment) or feel that prison is just another way of life for a few weeks/months/years. I feel that once the crime has been committed, it's already too late to try and fix things regardless of whether we try to be clever, or severe. Society has got to the point where it's unlikely you'll get punished for anything, therefore crime is tolerated (and it is, with PCSOs and ASBOs doing very little to change things). If we have a situation where these people decide to reproduce because there's not much else to do, while others decide against children because of careers, then the people with very little will be the ones paying for our pensions in later years! God help us. (That's my little Daily Mail like story for the day!) Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse. Evidence for your statement? "That's strange. Several years ago I personally arrested a number of youths who did graffiti damage to the tune of several £100.000s between them. Some went to prison some didn't. Those who went to prison have kept well away from railway property ever since. Those who were given a variety of CSOs erc carried on with their damage. In the REAL world, PRISON DOES WORK." is evidence that you are wrong, or shouldn't generalise quite so much by saying it 'turns bad lads worse' as if it's 100% of the time. Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
" writes:
Well, I'd suggest that for the next year or so a lot more money will be saved by the Police, railway companies etc. in not having the clear up after these two every time they feel like airbrushing a train or two. Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish colour schemes used by some TOCs. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 09:48:09 +0100 someone who may be Pyromancer
wrote this:- Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. Not allowed, I forget the reason why. However, it might be worth glueing these scumbags to the front of a train and taking them for a ride they are unlikely to forget, perhaps between London and some place an hour or so away. They might not be keen to repeat such an experience. There would be some danger in this, but probably no more than they expose themselves to when they carry out their "artistic" activities. Provided passengers at the intermediate stations were warmed beforehand the majority would probably enjoy the spectacle. Even more of a punishment for the "artists" might be the fact that others would laugh at them, especially when they were being attached and removed from the train. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Jonathan Morris wrote: ...Or keep them inside but don't let them mix with others (making it a VERY harsh environment)... If you mean solitary confinement then I'd agree it would be (unduly) harsh, but I can never understand why there's not more segregation of prisoners by type of offence. With the exception of the 'categories' (which seem to be more to do with the risk that inmates will abscond and/or harm others) and - AIUI - special arrangements for sex offenders, it seems the graffiti vandal is liable to be accommodated alongside the car thief, bank robber or whatever, inevitably leading to some 'skills' transfer. Would it be unduly difficult to group prisons into, say, three or four per region, which would offer around 12 wings each of which could be populated with inmates convicted for a specific group of offences, such as graffiti and vandalism, vehicle theft, burglary, assault etc.? I accept there would still be some learning within groups (how to get into Clapham Yard without being spotted, how to hot-wire a Vectra etc.) but better that than the convicted graffiti vandal emerging as a bank robber. Steve Adams |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Aren't the railways in Britain privatized? Why is protecting their property of any concern to the government? This is one of the problems with privatization schemes. The private companies take the profitable parts of the operation and leave the difficult problems to the government. John Mara |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Pyromancer" wrote in message ... Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian Begg-Robertson gently breathed: wrote in message roups.com... Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept of what a prison is for. Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Far better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner to run. -- - DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP! http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It wont! Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Phil McGlass" wrote in message ... "Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote: Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation. It's when they are released that the problems arise. Prison does NOT work in that it does not equip a prisoner for release again. And the fact remains that, all bar a tiny minority, all of the many thousands of people in prison right now WILL be released. Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Graham Murray" wrote in message ... " writes: Well, I'd suggest that for the next year or so a lot more money will be saved by the Police, railway companies etc. in not having the clear up after these two every time they feel like airbrushing a train or two. Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish colour schemes used by some TOCs. Just when I thought that some of the answers could not get anymore silly. Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message ups.com... Brian Begg-Robertson wrote: PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse. Evidence for your statement? "That's strange. Several years ago I personally arrested a number of youths who did graffiti damage to the tune of several £100.000s between them. Some went to prison some didn't. Those who went to prison have kept well away from railway property ever since. Those who were given a variety of CSOs erc carried on with their damage. In the REAL world, PRISON DOES WORK." is evidence that you are wrong, or shouldn't generalise quite so much by saying it 'turns bad lads worse' as if it's 100% of the time. Jonathan There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates. NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that prison is anything but writing off a young person for life. Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Phil McGlass wrote: Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation. It's when they are released that the problems arise. That's like saying jumping off the top of a building is perfectly safe, the problems only arise when you hit the ground. Indeed. Don't these Daily Mail readers make you laugh! I am anything but a liberal with crime and punishment, but they seem to think that the answer to everything is to lock people up. Executing anyone guilty of anything more horrendous than a parking fine would at least be honest! Brian. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote:
Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It wont! How about a day in the stocks then ? Or drenching their clothes with paint ? |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
"Pyromancer" wrote in message ... Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept of what a prison is for. Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and tell us how wonderful it was. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't. Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the crime rate is far worse than in the UK. Far better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner to run. I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings? -- Tim Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by giving them the birch. We've never had it so bad. Anti social behaviour (which I'd probably have to say that graffitti falls into) is way out of control because there's no punishment. ASBOs aren't enforced and community support officers are laughed at by both criminals AND real police. Now we're supposed to let shoplifters off with community service (that less than 50% of people actually do) and hope that makes them feel relieved enough to 'think about what they've done'. Look at car crime, with people driving while banned, uninsured or without a licence. They keep getting caught over and over, with millions of points and a ban that lasts until they're 200 years old. It doesn't deter them. However, when the police got the power to crush the cars they were in, finally they begin to learn in their primitive way that they might still be at liberty, but they can't actually break the law again (at least that's the theory, if we didn't ditch traffic cops for static cameras that can't do anything but send out a speeding ticket to a ficticious address). In some cases, an alternative look at punishing people is a good idea. But if they're out terrorising people or damaging property, you MUST take them off the street. If we don't, then in years to come we don't need to worry about terrorists, because the streets will be complete anarchy. Honest, law abiding citizens will stop hiding behind their curtains and take the law into their own hands. Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It wont! If you threw away the key it would! They would NEVER get out in that case. Forget whether it deters anyone else turning to a life of crime; you've at least dealt with the problem in hand. Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
Prison does NOT work in that it does not equip a prisoner for release again. And the fact remains that, all bar a tiny minority, all of the many thousands of people in prison right now WILL be released. The prison system is obviously wrong if it can't equip a prisoner for returning to normal life. What is your suggested alternative though? Community support? How many people turn up or complete this? A fine? How many people pay up? Surely the prison system needs to be fixed? We can't just give up and cross our fingers hoping that being respectful to petty criminals will make them good. Kids laugh at cops because they feel, and probably do, have more power and rights. Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates. NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that prison is anything but writing off a young person for life. So you ignored my question, and the quoted comment then. That's ONE SCRAP of evidence, and it's pretty obvious that while you ARE right in many cases (and I'd even go as far to agree that it quite probably is most cases) it isn't ALL. If I can live in the real world, why can't you? Prison does serve a valuable purpose. What's the percentage of the prison population that's young incidentally? If they're older is prison okay then? Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Graham Murray wrote:
Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish colour schemes used by some TOCs. How much is well done? Mostly it's a simple tag, which requires no skill (take a pen and paper, now scribble some initials or a name; hey presto.. your very own tag). I'd agree that some stuff you see doesn't look too bad, but it's not up to you or I to decide whether we should be 'adding to the character of an area'. Covering the cab window of a train probably isn't particularly safe either. More important though is the fact that people don't feel safe around graffitti, even if a lot of it is done when they're not there (rather than the image of a train being attacked with helpless passengers looking on). Jonathan |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Phil McGlass wrote: Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation. It's when they are released that the problems arise. That's like saying jumping off the top of a building is perfectly safe, the problems only arise when you hit the ground. Indeed. Don't these Daily Mail readers make you laugh! I am anything but a liberal with crime and punishment, but they seem to think that the answer to everything is to lock people up. Maybe it is, but they shouldn't lock minor criminal youths up with hardened old lags. Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam prisons, heavyweight prisons etc. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
In message , at 18:31:20 on Sat,
2 Sep 2006, John Rowland remarked: Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam prisons, heavyweight prisons etc. They do. -- Roland Perry |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
On 2 Sep 2006 09:22:22 -0700, "Jonathan Morris" wrote:
If you threw away the key it would! They would NEVER get out in that case. Forget whether it deters anyone else turning to a life of crime; you've at least dealt with the problem in hand. I object to paying my good tax money to keep miscreants like this in jail for even a few months, much less the rest of their lives. There are a couple of tried and true ways of dealing with this kind of person: 1) Make them clean the outside of the trains they (or others) have spoiled. Then make them clean the insides of trains for a long period of community service. They won't want to try it again. The only problem with this is that the workers whose jobs these are aren't keen to let the miscreants take them over. The solution to that is to make the workers the managers of these kids while they're doing the work. 2) If they're actually artistic, besides (1) give them a legal canvas to do their work on. It worked in New York City when I lived there. This does not work unless (1) is also used. 3) Ensure that train yards are well-protected with fences, guard dogs, barbed wire, and CCTV cameras that work in the dark. Does nothing for the miscreants, but makes it so much less easy to do the dirty deed that they may try less difficult canvases such as walls. Then apply (1) and (2) to them when they're caught at it. -- Chris Hansen chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:31:20 on Sat, 2 Sep 2006, John Rowland remarked: Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam prisons, heavyweight prisons etc. They do. Indeed, which is why the two youths in question have, in fact, been sentenced to periods of detention in a Young Offenders Institution, rather than imprisonment. We don't know if these two have any previous, or if the decision to impose an immediate custodial sentence was solely due to the seriousness of the offences, but he fact is that custodial sentences need to be available, the shortcomings of the prison system notwithstanding. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising
so-called "graffers" and their work. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
On 2/9/06 20:46, " wrote:
Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising so-called "graffers" and their work. Graffiti artist Banksy lives and often works in this part of Bristol and has become a much-respected member of the local community. For those of you unfamiliar with his work, take a look at http://www.banksy.co.uk/menu.html |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
On 2 Sep 2006 09:44:44 -0700, Jonathan Morris wrote in
. com, seen in uk.railway: Graham Murray wrote: Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish colour schemes used by some TOCs. How much is well done? Mostly it's a simple tag, which requires no skill (take a pen and paper, now scribble some initials or a name; hey presto.. your very own tag). I'd agree that some stuff you see doesn't look too bad, but it's not up to you or I to decide whether we should be 'adding to the character of an area'. Covering the cab window of a train probably isn't particularly safe either. More important though is the fact that people don't feel safe around graffitti, even if a lot of it is done when they're not there (rather than the image of a train being attacked with helpless passengers looking on). http://ross.photobook.org.uk/p33582315.html is a good example of bog-standard graffiti. It's not "well done", or artistic. It's just a mess - and when it was done it quite clearly obscured the carriage windows. There is some artistic graffiti, but IMX it's probably less than one piece in a thousand at best. Most graffiti is little more than damage. This lot even advertise their work: http://www.milk.ten.lt - the website URL was scrawled all over Lincoln last year. -- Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever. Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me. Demonstration of poor photography: http://www.rosspix.me.uk - updated with NL & LU pix AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for European charters occasionally gripped by me |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian
Begg-Robertson gently breathed: Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It wont! I can't really follow what you mean here - are you saying that as they don't respect anything, we should lock them up forever, or that we should just give in and ignore them, or something else? Carrying a gun isn't the same as actually being shot - because everyone thinks "it won't happen to me". Same way thrill-seeking teenagers take silly risks because they assume the "bad stuff" always happens to someone else. If those caught doing anti-social things were quickly and painfully punished, *and* if detection rates were improved so that said thugs knew they would eventually get caught and dealt with (this being the difficult and expensive bit that most Daily Wail types forget about), then I believe we would see a change. As for "making them better people" - I never have subscribed to the idea that you can reform people. People can choose to reform themselves, and when they so choose the results can be amazing. But it has to come from within someone, it doesn't come from outside, no matter how many "oppertunities" or facilities you put in place. -- - DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP! http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote: "Pyromancer" wrote in message ... Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian Begg-Robertson gently breathed: wrote in message roups.com... Solario wrote: Peter Masson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm Peter Reasonably good news, :-) Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist. It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these scumbags. Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept of what a prison is for. Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Far better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner to run. -- - DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP! http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It wont! Brian. Brian, do you really think that those who carry knives etc. do so "knowing" that this reduces their life-expectancy to mid-20s? What evidence do you have that they take a blind bit of notice of statistics such as those quoted by you? I'd wager, however, that they would take a bit of notice of some severe humiliation and pain - not the threat of it (which would be disregarded in the same way as your statistics) but the actual experience of it. The Singapore example tends to suggest that those who are birched rarely reoffend. Marc. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Tim Fenton wrote: "Pyromancer" wrote in message ... Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept of what a prison is for. Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and tell us how wonderful it was. Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't. Why not? We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the World. From where do you think Singapore took its example? Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the crime rate is far worse than in the UK. What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in Saudi Arabia? Far better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner to run. I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings? Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:- The right to make others' lives a misery The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in clearing up the mess made The right to vandalise any property, public or private The right to enter private property without the owner's consent The right to act offensively with impunity The right to stick one's thumb up at any form of authority The right to get away with whatever one likes The right to get away with two offences with only a "Final Warning" for each The right to receive a "referral order" for the third offence The right to get away with 5 or 6 breaches of a referral order before being re-sentenced The right to get away with 5 or 6 breaches of any other community sentence before a custodial sentence is even considered These are the "rights" which these vandals enjoy and which I would happily deny them. Marc. -- Tim Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
Graham Murray wrote: " writes: Well, I'd suggest that for the next year or so a lot more money will be saved by the Police, railway companies etc. in not having the clear up after these two every time they feel like airbrushing a train or two. Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well done' graffiti actually do much harm? Of course it does. I don't want to travel on a train that looks as if it's a piece of crap. Moreover, much of the vandalism that these two were responsible for (according to the pictures I've seen) is over the windows of carriages. I don't want to travel in a train whose windows have been obscured by this filth. Some of it can be very artistic and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish colour schemes used by some TOCs. I agree with the comment about garish liveries, but tolerated vandalism is hardly the solution. More seriously, I have seen speed signs and junction markers on the line between Clapham and Waterloo totally obscured by spray paint. That can hardly add to the safety of railways. Marc. |
2 jailed for railway graffiti
John Mara wrote: Brian Begg-Robertson wrote: Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK. Aren't the railways in Britain privatized? Why is protecting their property of any concern to the government? This is one of the problems with privatization schemes. The private companies take the profitable parts of the operation and leave the difficult problems to the government. John Mara That's a curious interpretation of the duty of government! My house is private property too, but I'd be pretty shocked if I were told that someone who vandalised it would not be searched for or prosecuted because it was private property and therefore my duty to find and obtain redress privately. John, you misunderstand the purpose of the criminal justice system. It is not to obtain redress between citizens - which is why compensation is rarely paid and only in nominal sums. Crimes are committed in breach of The Queen's peace and that is why criminals are prosecuted in the name of The Queen. That is why even if the owner of property vandalised cannot be ascertained, or someone found in possession of stolen goods where the owner can not be identified, or where an assault takes place and the "victim" has even given his consent to the assault, there will STILL be a criminal prosecution. Marc. |
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