Mizter T wrote:

The Hatton Cross to T4 shuttle bus service "will continue for a week
after the Piccadilly line reopens to ensure passengers make a smooth
transition back to the Tube" says the TfL press release:

Translation: "We expect the loop to go tits-up as soon as it reopens, like
the Drain"

John Rowland wrote:
They are certainly more efficient than you are at updating the name of the
organisation running the Tube ;-)

Ha! Very good. I do get a bit confused, though - Transport for London
is the overall body, isn't it, but then it's subdivided into London
Underground, London Buses etc. Is that right?

Patrick

On 22 Sep 2006 01:34:21 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either:

(1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop
or
(2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse.

The service will be split half/half.

Isn't it 2/3 T5 vs 1/3 T4? Or perhaps I'm imagining that.

Those going to T123 will find
themselves there quicker on a train that goes to T5, as they won't have
to go round the loop. In practice I guess the time penalty for being on
a T4 loop train won't be that great so maybe just a few savvy
passengers with light or no luggage will hop between trains to take
advantage of this.

I remember reading that T4 trains will have a layover in the platform
at T4 station, so for T123 it would probably be quicker to wait 5
minutes and catch the following T5 train.

ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go
around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above
problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50%
(at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that
direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights).

Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop,
running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL
(where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify
the line map and service pattern.

wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
They are certainly more efficient than you are at updating the name of the
organisation running the Tube ;-)

Ha! Very good. I do get a bit confused, though - Transport for London
is the overall body, isn't it, but then it's subdivided into London
Underground, London Buses etc. Is that right?

Patrick


Yes, that's it. For an outline see "About TfL":
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/abt_tfl.as

For details of TfL's subsidiaries see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/subsidiaries.asp
(also see the link to an organisational chart on that page)

asdf wrote:

ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go
around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above
problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50%
(at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that
direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights).

Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop,
running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL
(where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify
the line map and service pattern.

They should shut Terminal 4 (station and terminal) until T1, T2, T3 and T5
are all operating to capacity, which will be years away.

John Rowland wrote:
asdf wrote:
ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go
around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above
problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50%
(at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that
direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights).

Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop,
running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL
(where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify
the line map and service pattern.

They should shut Terminal 4 (station and terminal) until T1, T2, T3 and T5
are all operating to capacity, which will be years away.

No, they should (and apparently will) shut and demolish T2 (the oldest
and most crowded/cramped facility) once T5 opens. One of the airline
alliances - Skyteam? - is going into T4; it'll make connections much
simpler.


--

Stephen

BUFFY: Hey Ken, wanna see my impression of Ghandi?
*thwump*
LILY: Ghandi?
BUFFY: Well, you know. If he was really ****ed off.

wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round
the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet
been updated.
--
Roland Perry

When does T5 open?


March 30th, 2008, according to the Heathrow website. The second phase
opens in 2011.

--

Stephen

The Doctor: Excuse me, do you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?
Slitheen Joseph Green: Would you rather silent-but-deadly?

Roland Perry wrote:
I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round
the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet
been updated.
--
Roland Perry

When does T5 open?

In article , asdf
writes
It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either:
(1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop
or
(2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse.

That's forced by the physical layout:

T5 ---------*-- T123 ---------------* HX ----- London
/ /
| /
\ /
\-------- T4 -------/

ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go
around the loop (and still lay over at T4).

If you do that then London-bound trains will have to cross the westbound
line on the level, putting constraints on operations. Anyway, I don't
think that there's room west of Hatton Cross for a crossover to the
eastbound track (the junction is officially 90m from the mid-point of
the station, and a crossover requires at least 40m). So now you're
talking major reconstruction as well as resignalling the loop (which is
signalled one-way only).

Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop,
running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL
(where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify
the line map and service pattern.

The latter has the above problem. The former has the problem that the
single line between T3 and T4 puts heavy constraints on how frequent the
trains can be. Probably 3tph would be the limit.

[Memory says this was covered in Underground News recently.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

asdf wrote:

On 22 Sep 2006 01:34:21 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either:

(1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop
or
(2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse.

The service will be split half/half.

Isn't it 2/3 T5 vs 1/3 T4? Or perhaps I'm imagining that.

No you're not imagining that - my assertion that the service will be
split half/half was wrong - it will indeed be two-thirds to T5 (10 tph)
and one-third to the T4 loop (5tph) according to one of utl's favourite
reference sources...

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/6

This makes sense as Terminal 5 is a big beast and will serve far more
passengers than T4 (though I don't have the actual numbers to hand).


Those going to T123 will find
themselves there quicker on a train that goes to T5, as they won't have
to go round the loop. In practice I guess the time penalty for being on
a T4 loop train won't be that great so maybe just a few savvy
passengers with light or no luggage will hop between trains to take
advantage of this.

I remember reading that T4 trains will have a layover in the platform
at T4 station, so for T123 it would probably be quicker to wait 5
minutes and catch the following T5 train.

The alwaystouchout page confirms that trains will lay over at T4. Given
the through trains going to and coming from the T5 terminus then it
won't be possible for trains to lay over at T123 anymore. It would
indeed therefore seem that T4 loop trains will be less desirable for
those going to T123. The layover period isn't that long but nontheless
I can imagine a train load of passengers anxiously asking staff why
they're stuck at T4 when they want to be at T123.

I don't know much about layovers on the tube, but it seems it would be
preferable if it were kept at T4 for as short a period as possible -
i.e. a quick change of driver (and perhaps a rapid litter blitz) before
the train continued on it's way. Trains could be held at T123 for a
short while to maintain proper service spacing (can't remember the
right term!) on the westbound Piccadilly line.