wrote:

Are the terminals really so far apart that a three station loop would
have been impractical? It just seems a more logical service pattern
than some loop, some terminating.

The easternmost "satellite" of Terminal 5 will be very close to the straight
section which was originally built in the Terminal 4 loop to allow
construction of a T5 station. However, that easternmost satellite won't be
built for some years. Since there will be a tracked transit leading from the
main T5 to its satellites, it doesn't seem impossible that the T5 tube
station (as opposed to the HEx station) could not have been built on the
straight spot in the loop, and people could have got from there to where
they need to be by the tracked transit. I don't think the tracked transit
being airside would be a major problem, because you could have airside pods
and landside pods using the same track, so long as they had separate
stations. But the decision seems to have been to minimise the distance
travelled by cars by building the satellites furthest from the road network
last, and to muddy the waters of the Piccadilly Line for the next 100 years
in the process. I don't know how BAA got away with that.

Stephen Farrow wrote:
But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where they
terminate. Which isn't the case.

Are you suggesting that under the proposed service pattern all Heathrow
trains *won't* call at T123?


They will call at T123, but only /after/ they've called at T4 (and
waited for several minutes since T4 is the nominal terminus).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John Rowland wrote:
The easternmost "satellite" of Terminal 5 will be very close to the straight
section which was originally built in the Terminal 4 loop to allow
construction of a T5 station. However, that easternmost satellite won't be
built for some years. Since there will be a tracked transit leading from the
main T5 to its satellites, it doesn't seem impossible that the T5 tube
station (as opposed to the HEx station) could not have been built on the
straight spot in the loop, and people could have got from there to where
they need to be by the tracked transit. I don't think the tracked transit
being airside would be a major problem, because you could have airside pods
and landside pods using the same track, so long as they had separate
stations. But the decision seems to have been to minimise the distance
travelled by cars by building the satellites furthest from the road network
last, and to muddy the waters of the Piccadilly Line for the next 100 years
in the process. I don't know how BAA got away with that.

AIUI, BAA are paying all the costs of the new Piccadilly work - so
clearly they reckon it is more cost-benefit effective to do a whole
load of additional tunnelling and pointswork than to build the station
in the planned place and make everyone travel an additional distance on
the pod. A large part of this might well be that they don't want staff
to clutter the pod system, but would rather deliver them directly into
the main employment area.

Whatever their logic, I suspect that the fact that they're paying
probably has something to do with 'how BAA got away with that'...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband dot org

Dave Arquati wrote:
For details of TfL's subsidiaries see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/subsidiaries.asp
(also see the link to an organisational chart on that page)

Although from an internal view, it's somewhat different to what that
organisational chart implies (which just explains how the companies are
related to each other, rather than how TfL actually operates).

Practically, TfL is divided into London Underground, London Rail,
Corporate and Surface Transport (just to make things seem more complicated).


So are DLR and Tramlink lumped together with the buses in Surface
Transport, then?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In article , Peter
Frimberley writes
If I recall correctly, the T4 loop does include a straight section
somewhere near where, at the time of it's construction, they expected
a future T5 to be. However the T5 that's being built is considerably
larger and in a different place than the T5 foreseen back then.

Correct.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

John B wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:
But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where they
terminate. Which isn't the case.
Are you suggesting that under the proposed service pattern all Heathrow
trains *won't* call at T123?


They will call at T123, but only /after/ they've called at T4

Sure, but the point still stands that all Heathrow trains will call at T123.

--

Stephen

'Have it your way, Waseem, but if disposable saris don't catch on,
count me out!' For cast see Thursday. For fun, try getting out more.

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Peter
Frimberley writes
If I recall correctly, the T4 loop does include a straight section
somewhere near where, at the time of it's construction, they expected
a future T5 to be. However the T5 that's being built is considerably
larger and in a different place than the T5 foreseen back then.

Correct.

AIUI there is a short enlargement (approx 30ft length) of the running
tunnel to station tunnel size on this section, with (possibly) a
platform, but certainly a passageway leading to an access shaft. I'm
not sure if the shaft contains an emergency exit (possible, given the
interstation distance T4-T123), or ventilation equipment, or is just
left over from construction of the loop. This can be seen on the west
side of a train (i.e. left) looking out around halfway between T4 and
T123, and is (or was, pre-closure) quite brightly lit.

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Peter
Frimberley writes
If I recall correctly, the T4 loop does include a straight section
somewhere near where, at the time of it's construction, they expected
a future T5 to be. However the T5 that's being built is considerably
larger and in a different place than the T5 foreseen back then.

Correct.

AIUI there is a short enlargement (approx 30ft length) of the running
tunnel to station tunnel size on this section, with (possibly) a
platform, but certainly a passageway leading to an access shaft. I'm
not sure if the shaft contains an emergency exit (possible, given the
interstation distance T4-T123), or ventilation equipment, or is just
left over from construction of the loop. This can be seen on the west
side of a train (i.e. left) looking out around halfway between T4 and
T123, and is (or was, pre-closure) quite brightly lit.

Stephen Farrow wrote:
John B wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:
But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where
they terminate. Which isn't the case.
Are you suggesting that under the proposed service pattern all
Heathrow trains *won't* call at T123?


They will call at T123, but only /after/ they've called at T4

Sure, but the point still stands that all Heathrow trains will call
at T123.

The point is what to tell passengers so as to deliver them to their
destination as quickly as possible (important if you're catching a
plane). After all, you could say that currently any Piccadilly train to
Heathrow Airport will call at Wood Green; true eventually, but not very
useful advice.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message om, Harry
G writes

AIUI there is a short enlargement (approx 30ft length) of the running
tunnel to station tunnel size on this section, with (possibly) a
platform, but certainly a passageway leading to an access shaft. I'm
not sure if the shaft contains an emergency exit (possible, given the
interstation distance T4-T123), or ventilation equipment, or is just
left over from construction of the loop. This can be seen on the west
side of a train (i.e. left) looking out around halfway between T4 and
T123, and is (or was, pre-closure) quite brightly lit.

I'm not aware of any enlargement as you suggest, and I drive through it
most days and suspect I would have noticed by now. Definitely no
platforms down there other than T4, T123 and a set of steps at each
evacuation shaft.

There are two emergency evacuation shafts - Sanctuary Road and Wessex
Road (I gather they are both Airside). They are both located between T4
and PiccEx Junction on the loop. Where they go though, we never find
out! I was told during training that they lead to a locked, alarmed
door. Any attempt to leave by this route will find you in the company
of a large number of armed police in very short order.

There has now been an additional shaft built at PiccEx Junction, but I
suspect that's not really part of this discussion.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)