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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round
the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet been updated. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:35:28 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote in : I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet been updated. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=895 -- Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:35:28 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet been updated. New line diagrams are appearing on Piccadilly Line trains, showing the Heathrow loop again (replacing the previous ones which only showed the replacement bus service). As expected, they also show Sudbury Hill as an interchange for Sudbury Hill Harrow. The only other change I could see is that Hounslow West carries a note that it is "step-free for wheelchair users only". The mind boggles... |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
asdf wrote:
The only other change I could see is that Hounslow West carries a note that it is "step-free for wheelchair users only". The mind boggles... There is a wheelchair lift which cannot be used by a standing person. I would imagine it used to be a luggage lift, from the days when Hounslow West was the airport stop. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:57:44 +0100, asdf
wrote: The only other change I could see is that Hounslow West carries a note that it is "step-free for wheelchair users only". The mind boggles... Not really that boggling - it has a stairlift fitted to the staircase so someone in a wheelchair can reach the platforms. Other impaired people or people with buggies would still have to use the stairs as there is no lift. This stairlift was fitted years ago - with funding from Hounslow Council IIRC. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Roland Perry wrote: I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet been updated. I flew back from Bucharest on Sunday 17th and trains were running around the loop then, as the press release said, but the diagrams in the trains still showed the replacement bus service. London Transport is usually pretty efficient about changing the in-train signage for closures and openings, so this must have been a rare slip-up. Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=895 Incidentally, how is the line going to look once T5 is opened? Is it still going to be a loop, with three stations (T4, T5, T123 in that order from central London), or is the line going to split after Hatton Cross with some trains going to T4 and some to T123 & T5? Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
wrote: Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=895 Incidentally, how is the line going to look once T5 is opened? Is it still going to be a loop, with three stations (T4, T5, T123 in that order from central London), or is the line going to split after Hatton Cross with some trains going to T4 and some to T123 & T5? Patrick It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either: (1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop or (2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse. The service will be split half/half. Those going to T123 will find themselves there quicker on a train that goes to T5, as they won't have to go round the loop. In practice I guess the time penalty for being on a T4 loop train won't be that great so maybe just a few savvy passengers with light or no luggage will hop between trains to take advantage of this. I've read that the T5 station will be staffed by BAA personnel, I guess because they've entirely paid for the new Picadilly line link and station to T5. I wonder how well they'll do in dispensing good advice about public transport in London, and explaining the advantages of the Oyster card and various other tickets and selling them to punters. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Mizter T wrote:
The Hatton Cross to T4 shuttle bus service "will continue for a week after the Piccadilly line reopens to ensure passengers make a smooth transition back to the Tube" says the TfL press release: Translation: "We expect the loop to go tits-up as soon as it reopens, like the Drain" |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
John Rowland wrote: They are certainly more efficient than you are at updating the name of the organisation running the Tube ;-) Ha! Very good. I do get a bit confused, though - Transport for London is the overall body, isn't it, but then it's subdivided into London Underground, London Buses etc. Is that right? Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On 22 Sep 2006 01:34:21 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either: (1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop or (2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse. The service will be split half/half. Isn't it 2/3 T5 vs 1/3 T4? Or perhaps I'm imagining that. Those going to T123 will find themselves there quicker on a train that goes to T5, as they won't have to go round the loop. In practice I guess the time penalty for being on a T4 loop train won't be that great so maybe just a few savvy passengers with light or no luggage will hop between trains to take advantage of this. I remember reading that T4 trains will have a layover in the platform at T4 station, so for T123 it would probably be quicker to wait 5 minutes and catch the following T5 train. ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50% (at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights). Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop, running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL (where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify the line map and service pattern. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
wrote:
John Rowland wrote: They are certainly more efficient than you are at updating the name of the organisation running the Tube ;-) Ha! Very good. I do get a bit confused, though - Transport for London is the overall body, isn't it, but then it's subdivided into London Underground, London Buses etc. Is that right? Patrick Yes, that's it. For an outline see "About TfL": http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/abt_tfl.as For details of TfL's subsidiaries see: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/subsidiaries.asp (also see the link to an organisational chart on that page) |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
asdf wrote:
ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50% (at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights). Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop, running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL (where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify the line map and service pattern. They should shut Terminal 4 (station and terminal) until T1, T2, T3 and T5 are all operating to capacity, which will be years away. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
John Rowland wrote:
asdf wrote: ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go around the loop (and still lay over at T4). This would avoid the above problem, and effectively increase the service frequency to T123 by 50% (at the expense of effectively reducing it *from* T123, but in that direction people aren't under time pressure to catch flights). Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop, running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL (where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify the line map and service pattern. They should shut Terminal 4 (station and terminal) until T1, T2, T3 and T5 are all operating to capacity, which will be years away. No, they should (and apparently will) shut and demolish T2 (the oldest and most crowded/cramped facility) once T5 opens. One of the airline alliances - Skyteam? - is going into T4; it'll make connections much simpler. -- Stephen BUFFY: Hey Ken, wanna see my impression of Ghandi? *thwump* LILY: Ghandi? BUFFY: Well, you know. If he was really ****ed off. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Roland Perry wrote: I'm not sure when this started happening, but trains were running round the loop again yesterday. Signs inside the train I was on had not yet been updated. -- Roland Perry When does T5 open? |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
In article , asdf
writes It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either: (1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop or (2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse. That's forced by the physical layout: T5 ---------*-- T123 ---------------* HX ----- London / / | / \ / \-------- T4 -------/ ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go around the loop (and still lay over at T4). If you do that then London-bound trains will have to cross the westbound line on the level, putting constraints on operations. Anyway, I don't think that there's room west of Hatton Cross for a crossover to the eastbound track (the junction is officially 90m from the mid-point of the station, and a crossover requires at least 40m). So now you're talking major reconstruction as well as resignalling the loop (which is signalled one-way only). Slightly more radically, they could even close part of the loop, running trains either CL-HX-T123-T4-T123-HX-CL, or CL-HX-T4-HX-CL (where CL = Central London and HX = Hatton Cross). This would simplify the line map and service pattern. The latter has the above problem. The former has the problem that the single line between T3 and T4 puts heavy constraints on how frequent the trains can be. Probably 3tph would be the limit. [Memory says this was covered in Underground News recently.] -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
asdf wrote:
On 22 Sep 2006 01:34:21 -0700, Mizter T wrote: It's the latter AIUI - i.e. trains will run either: (1) Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross in the loop or (2) Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 where they'll terminate and then reverse. The service will be split half/half. Isn't it 2/3 T5 vs 1/3 T4? Or perhaps I'm imagining that. No you're not imagining that - my assertion that the service will be split half/half was wrong - it will indeed be two-thirds to T5 (10 tph) and one-third to the T4 loop (5tph) according to one of utl's favourite reference sources... http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/6 This makes sense as Terminal 5 is a big beast and will serve far more passengers than T4 (though I don't have the actual numbers to hand). Those going to T123 will find themselves there quicker on a train that goes to T5, as they won't have to go round the loop. In practice I guess the time penalty for being on a T4 loop train won't be that great so maybe just a few savvy passengers with light or no luggage will hop between trains to take advantage of this. I remember reading that T4 trains will have a layover in the platform at T4 station, so for T123 it would probably be quicker to wait 5 minutes and catch the following T5 train. The alwaystouchout page confirms that trains will lay over at T4. Given the through trains going to and coming from the T5 terminus then it won't be possible for trains to lay over at T123 anymore. It would indeed therefore seem that T4 loop trains will be less desirable for those going to T123. The layover period isn't that long but nontheless I can imagine a train load of passengers anxiously asking staff why they're stuck at T4 when they want to be at T123. I don't know much about layovers on the tube, but it seems it would be preferable if it were kept at T4 for as short a period as possible - i.e. a quick change of driver (and perhaps a rapid litter blitz) before the train continued on it's way. Trains could be held at T123 for a short while to maintain proper service spacing (can't remember the right term!) on the westbound Piccadilly line. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Mizter T wrote:
wrote: John Rowland wrote: They are certainly more efficient than you are at updating the name of the organisation running the Tube ;-) Ha! Very good. I do get a bit confused, though - Transport for London is the overall body, isn't it, but then it's subdivided into London Underground, London Buses etc. Is that right? Patrick Yes, that's it. For an outline see "About TfL": http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/abt_tfl.as For details of TfL's subsidiaries see: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/subsidiaries.asp (also see the link to an organisational chart on that page) Although from an internal view, it's somewhat different to what that organisational chart implies (which just explains how the companies are related to each other, rather than how TfL actually operates). Practically, TfL is divided into London Underground, London Rail, Corporate and Surface Transport (just to make things seem more complicated). -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On 25 Sep 2006 11:48:23 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
The alwaystouchout page confirms that trains will lay over at T4. Given the through trains going to and coming from the T5 terminus then it won't be possible for trains to lay over at T123 anymore. It would indeed therefore seem that T4 loop trains will be less desirable for those going to T123. The layover period isn't that long but nontheless I can imagine a train load of passengers anxiously asking staff why they're stuck at T4 when they want to be at T123. I don't know much about layovers on the tube, but it seems it would be preferable if it were kept at T4 for as short a period as possible - i.e. a quick change of driver (and perhaps a rapid litter blitz) before the train continued on it's way. Trains could be held at T123 for a short while to maintain proper service spacing (can't remember the right term!) on the westbound Piccadilly line. I think the reason for layovers is more to do with regulating the timetable, rather than for some procedure to take place. So if a train has a scheduled 5 minute layover, if it's running up to 5 minutes late, it can catch up to being on time simply by not waiting. I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further. (Line diagrams in Picc stations could even show T4 as being on a dead-end branch from Hatton Cross. Then again, this would cause confusion by being different from what's on the Tube map.) |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:40:43 +0100, asdf
wrote: I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further. (Line diagrams in Picc stations could even show T4 as being on a dead-end branch from Hatton Cross. Then again, this would cause confusion by being different from what's on the Tube map.) Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Clive D. W. Feather wrote: That's forced by the physical layout: T5 ---------*-- T123 ---------------* HX ----- London / / | / \ / \-------- T4 -------/ Probably a stupid question, but why was the decision taken to construct the line in that layout, rather than extending the loop so trains would call HX, T4, T5, T123? Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as
terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further... Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. Except the ones that don't go to Heathrow at all. -- Mark Brader "It is always dangerous to send authors to jail. Toronto This removes their chief excuse for not writing." -- Arthur C. Clarke |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Mark Brader wrote:
I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further... Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. Except the ones that don't go to Heathrow at all. OK, "All HEATHROW trains call at T1,2,3". -- Stephen |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where they
terminate. Which isn't the case. Stephen Farrow wrote: Mark Brader wrote: I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further... Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. Except the ones that don't go to Heathrow at all. OK, "All HEATHROW trains call at T1,2,3". -- Stephen |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On 26 Sep 2006 15:40:03 -0700, SamB wrote:
I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further... Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. Except the ones that don't go to Heathrow at all. OK, "All HEATHROW trains call at T1,2,3". But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where they terminate. Which isn't the case. OK, so it'd have to be "T5 via T123" and "T123 via T4". T4-bound trains with a T5 service following a few minutes behind (close enough that it will arrive at T123 first) could be shown as "T4 only". |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
SamB wrote:
But that implies that they got to T123, and then to T4, where they terminate. Which isn't the case. Are you suggesting that under the proposed service pattern all Heathrow trains *won't* call at T123? Stephen Farrow wrote: Mark Brader wrote: I suppose one possibility would be for the trains to be advertised as terminating at T4, and (by implication) going no further... Or they could have trains advertised as terminating at T4 or T5 with prominent "all trains call at T1,2,3" messages. Except the ones that don't go to Heathrow at all. OK, "All HEATHROW trains call at T1,2,3". -- Stephen -- Stephen What is this, an episode of Blossom? |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article .com, () wrote: Clive D. W. Feather wrote: That's forced by the physical layout: T5 ---------*-- T123 ---------------* HX ----- London / / | / \ / \-------- T4 -------/ Probably a stupid question, but why was the decision taken to construct the line in that layout, rather than extending the loop so trains would call HX, T4, T5, T123? Geography? Have you looked where Terminals 4 and 5 actually are? Thanks for that informative reponse. Are the terminals really so far apart that a three station loop would have been impractical? It just seems a more logical service pattern than some loop, some terminating. Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
wrote:
Geography? Have you looked where Terminals 4 and 5 actually are? Thanks for that informative reponse. Are the terminals really so far apart that a three station loop would have been impractical? It just seems a more logical service pattern than some loop, some terminating. Look at Heathrow on Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?&om=1&z=...+airpo rt,+uk You can see the new T5 taking shape about 1 ½ mile or someting west of the T 1-2-3 station. If you then look at the locations of T1-2-3, T4, T5 and Hatton Cross stations I think you realize that a big loop through all of the stations would not be realistic. But the again you have a point about the service pattern getting far more complex to the passangers, maybe it would have better to cut of the south-eastern part of the current loop and drive the T4 trains via T1-2-3 and then terminating and reversing at T4. That would give HX-T123-T4 or HX-T123-T5 services, both terminating and reversing out the same way they got in and easy to read and understand line diagrams. -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On 27 Sep 2006 02:27:37 -0700, wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article .com, () wrote: Clive D. W. Feather wrote: That's forced by the physical layout: T5 ---------*-- T123 ---------------* HX ----- London / / | / \ / \-------- T4 -------/ Probably a stupid question, but why was the decision taken to construct the line in that layout, rather than extending the loop so trains would call HX, T4, T5, T123? Geography? Have you looked where Terminals 4 and 5 actually are? Thanks for that informative reponse. Are the terminals really so far apart that a three station loop would have been impractical? It just seems a more logical service pattern than some loop, some terminating. If I recall correctly, the T4 loop does include a straight section somewhere near where, at the time of it's construction, they expected a future T5 to be. However the T5 that's being built is considerably larger and in a different place than the T5 foreseen back then. I've a vague feeling that the newish Heathrow Express tunnels also made provision for a T5 station where the original plan for it was, however that provision too has turned out useless. |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
In article , I wrote:
ISTM that it would be better to reverse the direction that trains go around the loop (and still lay over at T4). If you do that then London-bound trains will have to cross the westbound line on the level, putting constraints on operations. Anyway, I don't think that there's room west of Hatton Cross for a crossover to the eastbound track (the junction is officially 90m from the mid-point of the station, and a crossover requires at least 40m). So now you're talking major reconstruction as well as resignalling the loop (which is signalled one-way only). I was there today: there is *definitely* not enough room for a crossover without major tunnelling - the points are less than a car length from the stopping point. But the westbound platform is signalled reversibly and there's a crossover at the *east* end. So in theory you only need to resignal the loop. However, I'm still unconvinced that the pathing to fit eastbound trains between the westbound ones is workable, especially as this approach means the trains need to stop, not just run through. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Peter Frimberley wrote: I've a vague feeling that the newish Heathrow Express tunnels also made provision for a T5 station where the original plan for it was, however that provision too has turned out useless. The Heathrow Express provision is being used! It is a spur by Central station, where the current Heathrow Connect trains reverse (not in passenger use, obviously). The spur, which was put in during the original construction, is being extended to Terminal 5 as originally planned. PhilD -- |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
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Heathrow T4 tube station open again
In article ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes How close behind a via T4 train would a T5 terminator have to be for the latter to get passengers to T123 first? The advertised running times are 3 minutes from Hatton Cross to T4, and 5 from there to T123. I expect it's also 3 minutes from Hatton Cross direct to T123. So the answer is 4 minutes. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
Olof Lagerkvist wrote: wrote: Are the terminals really so far apart that a three station loop would have been impractical? It just seems a more logical service pattern than some loop, some terminating. Look at Heathrow on Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?&om=1&z=...+airpo rt,+uk You can see the new T5 taking shape about 1 ½ mile or someting west of the T 1-2-3 station. If you then look at the locations of T1-2-3, T4, T5 and Hatton Cross stations I think you realize that a big loop through all of the stations would not be realistic. I see what you mean; it is a bit further away than I thought. You still could have done a big loop, maybe giving Stanwell its own tube station as well. But I guess that would mean far longer journey times for passengers getting on at Terminal 4. Patrick |
Heathrow T4 tube station open again
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:21 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
OK, so it'd have to be "T5 via T123" and "T123 via T4". T4-bound trains with a T5 service following a few minutes behind (close enough that it will arrive at T123 first) could be shown as "T4 only". How close behind a via T4 train would a T5 terminator have to be for the latter to get passengers to T123 first? Depends how long the T4 trains lay over at T4. Add to that the time difference between going round the loop and going direct to T123, and you have your answer. |
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