Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

The applicable fares are then listed - the far cheaper Oyster fares
comes first (both the peak and off peak fares are listed if there's a
difference), followed by the pricey cash/printed ticket fare.

It's basically just a friendly front end to a simple database that
lists which stations are in what zones.

National Rail fares are only listed on routes where there is
interavailable NR/LU ticketing - one needs to go to the National Rail
Journey Planner for anything else.

This basically seems to be a bit of smart marketing to demonstrate to
those who don't wish to/don't know how to/ can't be bothered to consult
the fares tables how much cheaper the Oyster fare is.

Mizter T wrote i
..
Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares
section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

The applicable fares are then listed - the far cheaper Oyster fares
comes first (both the peak and off peak fares are listed if there's a
difference), followed by the pricey cash/printed ticket fare.

It's basically just a friendly front end to a simple database that
lists which stations are in what zones.

Err, that wouldn't work. The fare finder has to know how many zones
have to be crossed for a reasonable route from A to B and whether this
includes zone 1

I recall it being noted on this NG that some Oyster fares assume a zone
one route is taken. A simple lookup for fares would have 20,000+
entries, making all the contiguous stations on one line in one zone one
entry would chop this down a good deal.

--
Mike D

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

Mizter T wrote i
.
Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares
section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

The applicable fares are then listed - the far cheaper Oyster fares
comes first (both the peak and off peak fares are listed if there's a
difference), followed by the pricey cash/printed ticket fare.

It's basically just a friendly front end to a simple database that
lists which stations are in what zones.

Err, that wouldn't work. The fare finder has to know how many zones
have to be crossed for a reasonable route from A to B and whether this
includes zone 1

I recall it being noted on this NG that some Oyster fares assume a zone
one route is taken. A simple lookup for fares would have 20,000+
entries, making all the contiguous stations on one line in one zone one
entry would chop this down a good deal.


When I say it's a "friendly front end to a simple database" the
simplicity thereof is of course all relative - such a database could be
regarded as simple when compared to, say, the Sainsbury's Nectar card
database.

In fact I'll stop trying to justify my ill-thought out comments with
that somewhat weak excuse!

But I can give a better justification - perhaps all the fares between
any two listed stations have already been worked out and are merely
stored in a massive table with the 'most likely route' between any two
stations having already been decided by a human, so when you query the
single fare finder you're merely doing a lookup of this information
rather than having the information generated live (as it were).

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
Mizter T wrote i
..
Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares
section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

The applicable fares are then listed - the far cheaper Oyster fares
comes first (both the peak and off peak fares are listed if there's a
difference), followed by the pricey cash/printed ticket fare.

It's basically just a friendly front end to a simple database that
lists which stations are in what zones.

Err, that wouldn't work. The fare finder has to know how many zones
have to be crossed for a reasonable route from A to B and whether this
includes zone 1

I recall it being noted on this NG that some Oyster fares assume a zone
one route is taken. A simple lookup for fares would have 20,000+
entries, making all the contiguous stations on one line in one zone one
entry would chop this down a good deal.


I'd seen this before but not thought much of it - however, as you
mention, it does actually show what routes are set as the default for
certain journeys. For example, Shepherd's Bush (Central) to Stamford
Brook is routed via Z1, but to Turnham Green is routed via Z3.
Similarly, to Rayners Lane it is routed out of London (via Ealing
Broadway and Ealing Common) but to West Harrow, it is routed via London
(e.g. Notting Hill Gate/Baker St or Bond St/Finchley Rd)

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
Mizter T wrote i
..
Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares
section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

The applicable fares are then listed - the far cheaper Oyster fares
comes first (both the peak and off peak fares are listed if there's a
difference), followed by the pricey cash/printed ticket fare.

It's basically just a friendly front end to a simple database that
lists which stations are in what zones.

Err, that wouldn't work. The fare finder has to know how many zones
have to be crossed for a reasonable route from A to B and whether this
includes zone 1

I recall it being noted on this NG that some Oyster fares assume a zone
one route is taken. A simple lookup for fares would have 20,000+
entries, making all the contiguous stations on one line in one zone one
entry would chop this down a good deal.


I'd seen this before but not thought much of it - however, as you
mention, it does actually show what routes are set as the default for
certain journeys. For example, Shepherd's Bush (Central) to Stamford
Brook is routed via Z1, but to Turnham Green is routed via Z3.
Similarly, to Rayners Lane it is routed out of London (via Ealing
Broadway and Ealing Common) but to West Harrow, it is routed via London
(e.g. Notting Hill Gate/Baker St or Bond St/Finchley Rd)



I'm feeling stupid today, I hadn't quite clocked the significance of
what Michael said - this tool is basically your pass "through the
looking glass" into the heads of those TfL ticketing policy planners
who determine which route an A to B journey will take, for charging
purposes at least. That does presuppose that the information presented
by this tool is exactly the same as that used on the Oyster system
(though that's a fair enough supposition in my mind).

I assume that in every case the more expensive presumed route via zone
1 can be overridden by validating your Oyster at the interchange point,
or exiting and re-entering the gates - i.e. for Shepherds Bush to West
Harrow you would validate your Oyster card at Rayners Lane.

Such mid-journey Oyster validation shouldn't be termed touching-in, nor
touching-out - perhaps touching-within? No, that sounds a tad too kinky
for a public transport network, even if that same public transport
network keeps insisting everyone tucks in and gets hooked on their
Oysters.

Er, anyway, back on topic I've spotted two mistakes in the database of
station names. Highbury and Islington is just plain Highbury, and
Totteridge & Whetstone is just called Totteridge - at least according
to the 'single fares finder'. It doesn't lop off the second half of
other station names that contain an ampersand ("&") though, such as
Chalfont & Latimer and Elephant & Castle (despite the fact that us lazy
south Londoners call it "the Elephant" coz we can't be bothe...)

On 20 Oct 2006 13:03:38 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I assume that in every case the more expensive presumed route via zone
1 can be overridden by validating your Oyster at the interchange point,
or exiting and re-entering the gates - i.e. for Shepherds Bush to West
Harrow you would validate your Oyster card at Rayners Lane.

I OTOH would assume that TfL don't provide that facility at all. There
are certainly no validators at Rayners Lane, other than the usual ones
on the ticket gates (but presumably if you touch out then in again, it
simply charges you for two single journeys, Shepherds Bush to Rayners
Lane and Rayners Lane to West Harrow[1]). Ealing Broadway does have
"standalone" validators, but these are intended for people changing
to/from NR (which doesn't involve passing through the barriers), and
whilst it's possible they've been set up to still charge the correct
fare if you touch one while changing from Central to District on a
journey like North Acton to Ealing Common, I don't suppose the logic
has been added that would charge you the not-via-Z1 fare instead of
the via-Z1 fare for Shepherds Bush to West Harrow.

[1] Of course this might be desirable if you have a Z2345 Travelcard
and don't want to be charged for an extension via Z1. Even if you're
using PAYG, paying for the two non-Z1 journeys (1.80+1.00) would still
actually be cheaper than paying for the one via-Z1 one (3.50).

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nicholas wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas


Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!

Mizter T wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".

Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas


Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!


Err, on further investigation I'm increasingly proving myself wrong!
That is, if this fare finder is telling the truth...
(All examples below are peak PAYG fares as quoted the single fare
finder.)

Every journey between stations bounded by West Brompton, West Ken,
South Ken and High Street Ken (Barbie's 'chav' boyfriend who hangs
around outside McDonald's on the High Street on saturdays) apparently
costs £1.50 despite the fact that many cross the zonal frontier.

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!

On 24 Oct 2006 16:55:19 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Older versions of the NR National Fares Manual used to call them
"substandard fares", and included a table of all the ones that existed
from NR/LU interchange stations, but there's no mention of them in the
latest edition - not even the ones crossing the Z1 boundary.

Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!

The ones outside Z1 aren't needed any more; they haven't been ever
since the two-zone fare became the same as the one-zone fare.
(Though actually, I believe they disappeared *before* that change.)

The only ones that would still have a reason to exist would be the
ones crossing the Z1/Z2 boundary - and apparently they still do,
despite not having appeared in any recent publicity that I remember
seeing. I think it's too much of a coincidence to be a mistake.

The related "Tube only short distance season tickets" also seem to
have quietly disappeared off the face of the Earth. (These became
unnecessary with the abolition of the single-zone Travelcard.)