As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest)
June 2010.

What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long
was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and
it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme.

Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping,
Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement
buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and
then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all
together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down.

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:01:21 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest)
June 2010.

What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long
was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and
it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme.

Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping,
Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement
buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and
then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all
together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down.

AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling
all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or
quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in
engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could
not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then
either. I don't know how much construction is going to be needed on the
current ELL itself to cope with the new standards but I imagine a fair
amount of supporting infrastructure will be needed.

The physical integration issue with other lines is different - the
northern section will be linked in on a section that is closed anyway so
no impact there. At the southern end I understand that a flyover is to
be constructed and I imagine there will not be a huge issue with linking
that in - a longish weekend possession could deal with that.

The bigger issues concern testing all of the signalling and control
systems and the new rolling stock and training the drivers on the larger
network. While there is a parallel here to the JLE it is important to
remember that the huge issues with the JLE arose when they joined the
new bit to the old bit. The interface at Green Park was (and to some
extent still is) a nightmare and caused huge delays and signalling
failures. Given the ability of the expanded ELL to spread delays all
over north and south London I imagine a lot of time and effort (probably
6 months if not longer) is going to be spent to try to ensure the new
line is reliable from day one. If not then TfL will be paying out a lot
of cash to FCC and Southern for delays to services between Central
London and Croydon.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Tristán White wrote:
As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest)
June 2010.

What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long
was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and
it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme.

Ultimately, the JLE project was "simpler" than the ELL Extension from an
Engineering point of view, in that it's all new build, save for the
junction at Green Park, so they could do a phased opening beginning at
the Eastern end of the line.

And if memory serves, the only "closure" (other than those caused by the
regular signal failures) was the abandonment of Green Park - Charing
Cross, with the Green Park - Waterloo section opening the following day.

Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping,
Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement
buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and
then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all
together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down.

For the proposed services to operate, the line needs to be completely
resignalled, the power supply beefed up (again!), stations (presumably)
refurbished. In short, effectively a repeat of the last major closure.

It remains to be seen if the heritage nuts moan about the Thames Tunnel
again, thereby prolonging the closure...

Cheers,

Barry

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:13:03 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:01:21 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest)
June 2010.

What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long
was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and
it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme.

Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping,
Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement
buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and
then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all
together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down.

AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling
all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or
quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in
engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could
not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then
either.

Wasn't the ELL line completely closed for a few years leading up to
1999 or so, I think it was to line the Thames Tunnel?

Shame they didn't do any of this work then, but I suppose that
although the extension was well into planning by 1999, they probably
didn't know the full scope of works required.

Anyway, it is at least the second time the ELL users have been shafted
for several years in a row. Still, the finished line will probably be
worth it for them!

Yep, by 2010 the line will have been shut for 5 1/2 out of 15 years. I
moved to Rotherhithe during the last year of the previous closure. I was
told by the estate agents that the replacements buses were more useful
and reliable than the line ever was (but who can trust anything they
say?). Anyway I don't remember where I read this but I was led to
believe that during the last closure, the power supply was uprated and
that the line was ready to work at 3rd or 4th rail electrification. If
it needs resignalling then fine, let's just do it properly and not
re-use old pneumatics from the central line.. (I know, it's going to be
to NR standards not LU).
I remember the morning the ELL re-opened in 1998. I was greeted by a
signal failure notice and suspension of service. Some things never change.

Mark.


Barry Salter wrote:
Tristán White wrote:
As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the
earliest) June 2010.

What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How
long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that
long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme.

Ultimately, the JLE project was "simpler" than the ELL Extension from an
Engineering point of view, in that it's all new build, save for the
junction at Green Park, so they could do a phased opening beginning at
the Eastern end of the line.

And if memory serves, the only "closure" (other than those caused by the
regular signal failures) was the abandonment of Green Park - Charing
Cross, with the Green Park - Waterloo section opening the following day.

Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of
Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on
rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while
the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months
or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long
time for a line to be down.

For the proposed services to operate, the line needs to be completely
resignalled, the power supply beefed up (again!), stations (presumably)
refurbished. In short, effectively a repeat of the last major closure.

It remains to be seen if the heritage nuts moan about the Thames Tunnel
again, thereby prolonging the closure...

Cheers,

Barry

MJS wrote:
Yep, by 2010 the line will have been shut for 5 1/2 out of 15 years. I
moved to Rotherhithe during the last year of the previous closure. I was
told by the estate agents that the replacements buses were more useful
and reliable than the line ever was (but who can trust anything they
say?). Anyway I don't remember where I read this but I was led to
believe that during the last closure, the power supply was uprated and
that the line was ready to work at 3rd or 4th rail electrification. If
it needs resignalling then fine, let's just do it properly and not
re-use old pneumatics from the central line.. (I know, it's going to be
to NR standards not LU).

The uprating of the power supply during the last closure was to enable
Class 465 "Networker" EMUs to run through, but it needs further uprating
for the new, more powerful, Electrostars that will be running the
service, and an increase to 16 trains per hour on the core route.

Cheers,

Barry

Remember how long the Heathrow loop (Picadilly) closed for to allow
construction of the T5 branch? My guess is it's due to a total H&S
phobia of trains moving anywhere near workers (of course you can have
trucks reversing all over the place, but trains moving on a
predetermined track, ooh no).

Paul Corfield wrote:
AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling
all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or
quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in
engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could

Why will the current rails need to be changed? Drop the centre rail and
keep the outside rail. Done.

not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then
either. I don't know how much construction is going to be needed on the
current ELL itself to cope with the new standards but I imagine a fair
amount of supporting infrastructure will be needed.

Given that LU and NR trains run together on certain sections of track
already I can't see they'll need to change all that much. I suspect the
real reason they're closing it is that it makes their life a bit easier
, not because its really necessary (bit like the ELL extension as a
whole) and yet again the long suffering overcharged commuter gets
screwed.

line is reliable from day one. If not then TfL will be paying out a lot
of cash to FCC and Southern for delays to services between Central
London and Croydon.

More likely the other way around. FCC couldn't run the proverbial
****-up in a brewery without the beer being delayed going by what
they've done to Thameslink and WAGN.

B2003

Barry Salter wrote:

The uprating of the power supply during the last closure was to enable
Class 465 "Networker" EMUs to run through, but it needs further uprating
for the new, more powerful, Electrostars that will be running the
service, and an increase to 16 trains per hour on the core route.

I think you actually meant to write "more power hungry" rather than
more powerful. Efficiency doesn't seem to have been in the brief when
they were designed.

B2003

Boltar wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling
all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or
quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in
engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could

Why will the current rails need to be changed? Drop the centre rail and
keep the outside rail. Done.


Are the existing running rails set up to current return? If not
they'll have to be adapted.

Given that LU and NR trains run together on certain sections of track
already I can't see they'll need to change all that much.

Track that's been specially configured to allow LU and NR trains to run
together. That isn't the case in the ELL.