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Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 Selected excerpts follow: ---------- The main gap in payments on Oyster card remains on surface rail where the train operating companies are yet to accept Oyster pre-pay. This affects 180,000 passengers a day. In May 2006, the Mayor offered a funding package of £20m to the train operators, which will finance the technology to accept the pay as you go system to be bought and installed at every station in Zones 1-6. The companies have until the 31 January to accept this offer. [...] The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "Around three quarters of journeys on London's buses and Underground are now paid for by Oyster card compared to only five per cent by cash - bringing huge time savings to passengers and the transport system. "Ten million Oyster cards have now been taken out by the public. "But most of the train operating companies still continue to deprive their passengers of the benefits of Oyster payment for single journeys with pre-pay. "With the introduction of a zone system for rail fares in London, and my offer to train operators to pay them £20m to install Oyster equipment, there is no reason why the train operating companies cannot sign up to our proposals by 31st January. ---------- I wasn't aware there was a deadline to the Mayor's offer to pay for installation of the Oyster kit, at least not such an immediate one. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why TOCs might be wary of Oyster PAYG. However two of the TOCs strongest arguments against getting involved have now been largely nixed. One reason the TOCs were diffident - that they'd lose the opportunity to set their own fares - no longer exists, as the DfT decreed that from the 2 January just gone all London rail fares were be zonally priced. Another possible reason for the TOCs objection, that of fraud, has largely been neutered by the fact that passengers using Oyster PAYG (on the Tube and the few participating NR routes) are now penalised if they don't touch-in *and* touch-out for each and every journey they make - thus providing a very strong incentive for them to pay the right fare, and a strong disincentive to anyone attempting to abuse the system. There are other arguments, but I don't think any of them are really that convincing, especially when weighed against the advantages that rail passengers would benefit from. It remains to be seen whether the Mayor's brinkmanship will win over the TOCs - we shall see. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
"Ten million Oyster cards have now been taken out by the public. Given that the Greater London Urban Area has a population of ~8.5 million, I wonder how many individual customers that is made up of? For example, I have three cards as they insist on issuing a new student card each year (leaving the old ones active but with the discount switched off). Other members of my family have a Freedom Pass and an Oyster for PAYG. I wonder if the Freedom Passes are included in the figure? |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=10389 [snip] I wasn't aware there was a deadline to the Mayor's offer to pay for installation of the Oyster kit, at least not such an immediate one. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why TOCs might be wary of Oyster PAYG. However two of the TOCs strongest arguments against getting involved have now been largely nixed. If you think about it it does make sense to have a deadline but I wasn't aware of it until today. Without it some TOCs would "negotiate" until their franchises expired when it will become mandatory upon reletting by the DfT. One reason the TOCs were diffident - that they'd lose the opportunity to set their own fares - no longer exists, as the DfT decreed that from the 2 January just gone all London rail fares were be zonally priced. Another possible reason for the TOCs objection, that of fraud, has largely been neutered by the fact that passengers using Oyster PAYG (on the Tube and the few participating NR routes) are now penalised if they don't touch-in *and* touch-out for each and every journey they make - thus providing a very strong incentive for them to pay the right fare, and a strong disincentive to anyone attempting to abuse the system. There are other arguments, but I don't think any of them are really that convincing, especially when weighed against the advantages that rail passengers would benefit from. I think you might be underestimating the issues the TOCs have. This is about money and information about customers - both crucial to TOCs. Issues such as apportionment, settlement, commission, equipment maintenance / reliability, card management and usage / customer data were big issues years ago. Now the thing is real and working and passengers are voting with their feet in some cases TOCs will be feeling the effects of Oyster. For those not under the DfT "cosh" of new franchises they have a lot to play for and I suspect they are testing to see whether £20m can be made to become £30-40m. Ken is at risk of making himself a hostage to fortune as he does not have the power to compel acceptance and there are legally binding agreements sitting in the background that have to be dealt with if we are not to see things get worse rather than better. It remains to be seen whether the Mayor's brinkmanship will win over the TOCs - we shall see. Indeed it does. I hope we get to the right place with this but I suspect there'll be no settlement until the very last minute. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T" wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.) |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote:
TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 "Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute compared to 15 a minute." That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in, whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar
wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T" wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.) You can? Please tell me. I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly wrong while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is possible given the western sense of personal space. Gates of alternative designs on systems in the far east can handle far more. There is a different sense of personal space in places like Taipei and Tokyo where crush loading is more readily accepted. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
"asdf" wrote in message
... On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 "Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute compared to 15 a minute." That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in, whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge. Just wait for the light to go orange, and you can pass. It never screws up, and if it would, it would behave like paper tickets, and close before you could get through, or at least give you a fair chance to not enter and correct it. But, as I say, I've yet to have it happen to me, and I've been using oyster PAYG since the beginning. But please, feel free to congest the gates. It really helps, I hear. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T" wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.) You can? Please tell me. Hmm, on further review... I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly wrong That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate. while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is possible given the western sense of personal space. I think that's based on how long it takes to read the card and return to a state able to accept the next card being 1.5s - I don't know if this is accurate, but it's plausible. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:25:46 +0000, asdf
wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 "Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute compared to 15 a minute." That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in, whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge. Then you're wasting your time and throwing away a clear benefit of Oyster. As soon as the light goes orange, you can touch in/out. As soon as the light goes green, you can go through the gate, knowing that your card has been read and accepted. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:12:17 +0000, James Farrar
wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T" wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.) You can? Please tell me. Hmm, on further review... I did wonder if I'd missed something. I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly wrong That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate. 25ppm is the planning capacity per walkway. while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is possible given the western sense of personal space. I think that's based on how long it takes to read the card and return to a state able to accept the next card being 1.5s - I don't know if this is accurate, but it's plausible. I've seen (and taken part in) a demonstration at Cubic's UK offices where we got just under 40 people a minute through a gate. The paddles never moved as the ticket transport / target was permanently activated and thus no instruction to close was given. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
James Farrar wrote:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:25:46 +0000, asdf wrote: "Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute compared to 15 a minute." That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in, whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge. Then you're wasting your time and throwing away a clear benefit of Oyster. As soon as the light goes orange, you can touch in/out. As soon as the light goes green, you can go through the gate, knowing that your card has been read and accepted. Not sure about that. I've been caught out in what I believe is this scenario: The person ahead of me has his ticket (paper or Oyster) rejected. The light goes red, and the gate stays shut. I then arrive at the gate, see that the light is (by then) orange, touch in my Oyster, and then realise that there is a person trapped in front of me. But the gates then open (for me), the person ahead of me goes through, and the gates then shut before I can pass through. Further attempts to read my Oyster are rejected. Your advice should be to touch in on orange only if the light was previously green, or if no-one is between you and the gate. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Richard J. wrote:
snip But the gates then open (for me), the person ahead of me goes through, and the gates then shut before I can pass through. Further attempts to read my Oyster are rejected. Oh yes, that's happened a lot - to me and others - around me when it's very busy. The other problem is the people 'doubling up' deliberately, as the new style gates are perfect at letting fare evaders through. These are the same gates in use now on FCC GN (first being at Stevenage and one other station). The evaders are already managing to get past quite successfully, not helped by the fact that inspectors and other staff will generally turn a blind eye to anyone they feel may assault them. But that's a discussion best saved for another thread...! To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone 6 too. Jonathan |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Paul Corfield wrote:
I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly wrong while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is possible given the western sense of personal space. So, why then did Kings Cross (and a few others) get the worlds slowest ticket gates. The old gates are simple, you put the ticket in, the ticket pops out, you grab and walk. Kings Cross firstly hates paper tickets (I do a lot of out of boundary x-london rail tickets) - Many gates don't take them, others are hard work. And secondly, after you've taken the ticket, or touched an oyster, the gate waits half a second before opening. I used to reguarly walk into them! Now I conciously wait for the damn thing. Gates should be getting faster and more reliable - Those at Kings Cross (and everywhere else with that design) are much slower. Why were they allowed to go into service? What is planned to be done about it? regards HN28 |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message oups.com... To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone 6 too. Bear in mind one of the reasons the TOCs didn't go for Oyster is that the government was pushing a different standardised smartcard (ITSO format), and Oyster wasn't compatible with it. Don't know what the current deal is on interoperability for smartcards, though I think in the new SWT franchise for example they are not compelled to introduce 'Oyster' as such, only a smartcard. Paul |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
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Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Paul Scott wrote:
"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message oups.com... To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone 6 too. Bear in mind one of the reasons the TOCs didn't go for Oyster is that the government was pushing a different standardised smartcard (ITSO format), and Oyster wasn't compatible with it. Don't know what the current deal is on interoperability for smartcards, though I think in the new SWT franchise for example they are not compelled to introduce 'Oyster' as such, only a smartcard. Paul From the March '06 TfL press release about the new SWT franchise [1]: "This means that from 2009, passengers on the on the South West Main Line will be able to take Oyster ticketing [...]" ....and... "The specification outlined demands that the successful bidder for the franchise will: * Provide Oyster validating or ITSO equipment at all stations on the South West Main Line franchise by 2009" However if you take a look at this May '06 TfL press release [2] you'll see that there are moves to integrate the proprietary Oyster smart card system with an ITSO system. This is from the end notes: "The Department for Transport has agreed to fund for upgrades to existing Oyster equipment in London to make Oyster gates and validators on the Underground, at major rail termini and on the buses, accept basic alternative Smartcard (ITSO) products. The expected cost is around £19m." Exactly how Oyster and ITSO smartcards will work together in practice isn't clear - not least because it probably hasn't yet been worked out! [1] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=742 [2] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=776 |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:42:36 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:12:17 +0000, James Farrar wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar wrote: On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T" wrote: TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline - the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal. See this TfL press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037 The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput. I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.) You can? Please tell me. Hmm, on further review... I did wonder if I'd missed something. I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly wrong That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate. 25ppm is the planning capacity per walkway. In which case, is it simply a case of someone's typoed "15" for "25" and the hierarchy has jumped on it? |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:48:09 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote: Your advice should be to touch in on orange only if the light was previously green, or if no-one is between you and the gate. Granted. I rather assume that people will act to curtail faredodgers' activoty rather than facilitate it. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
"Mizter T" wrote in message oups.com... From the March '06 TfL press release about the new SWT franchise [1]: "This means that from 2009, passengers on the on the South West Main Line will be able to take Oyster ticketing [...]" ....and... "The specification outlined demands that the successful bidder for the franchise will: * Provide Oyster validating or ITSO equipment at all stations on the South West Main Line franchise by 2009" However if you take a look at this May '06 TfL press release [2] you'll see that there are moves to integrate the proprietary Oyster smart card system with an ITSO system. This is from the end notes: "The Department for Transport has agreed to fund for upgrades to existing Oyster equipment in London to make Oyster gates and validators on the Underground, at major rail termini and on the buses, accept basic alternative Smartcard (ITSO) products. The expected cost is around £19m." Exactly how Oyster and ITSO smartcards will work together in practice isn't clear - not least because it probably hasn't yet been worked out! Sounds like much more convergence is happening then - in the latest SWT mag they still simply refer to smartcards - I suspect that some negotiation will take place and the name 'Oyster' will survive - a bit like Mr Hoover's invention.... Paul |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
work. And secondly, after you've taken the ticket, or touched an
oyster, the gate waits half a second before opening. I used to reguarly walk into them! Now I conciously wait for the damn thing. Gates should The new gates are very slow at all locations. AIUI the old gates were air operated but after station refurbishment these are replaced by the slower electric ones. In quiet station times you can easily validate and get to the gates before they've even started to move. The card reading process is really quick, you can place and remove the card quite quickly but the return signal and movement of the paddles is abysmal. It's a fare dodgers paradise, I've no idea why they didn't pick up on this when they were testing or stop the rollout of the damn things until it was improved. D |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Paul Corfield wrote:
Oh not again. The problem won't go away by ignoring it!! FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. The gates are very slow to open - and close, which frustrates people with tickets and rewards those without. If you were involved with their introduction, you must admit that they're far from perfect. On the plus side, they do look nice and are very slim (which is useful for the TOCs that have relatively small entrances in comparison to the Underground). Jonathan |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Jonathan Morris wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: Oh not again. The problem won't go away by ignoring it!! FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. He already said he hadn't been involved with this for years. I agree that the slow gates are very frustrating (more so because they are new!) but perhaps we should address our frustration elsewhere? -- Michael Hoffman |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Jonathan Morris wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Oh not again. The problem won't go away by ignoring it!! FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. He already said he hadn't been involved with this for years. I agree that the slow gates are very frustrating (more so because they are new!) but perhaps we should address our frustration elsewhere? Indeed - stop berating the man - he didn't do it! Write to TfL and/or London Travelwatch instead. And if you're that miffed actually do it! http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/Default.asp https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/form.asp http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/contact.php |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On 11 Jan 2007 06:09:31 -0800, "Jonathan Morris"
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Oh not again. The problem won't go away by ignoring it!! With thanks to the two posters who have commented already I'll make one thing straight. I post here for *fun* - this isn't my job or even an extension of it. I hope I add something to the group by commenting or sharing information. If people are going to expect more from me than I can ever hope to deliver - and it's happened once before - I'll simply have to go. (Don't all cheer at once!). While I'm sure it would be lovely to imagine that I'm personally accountable for everything that happens on LU I'm afraid I'm not. I can't take ownership of every issue or go round quoting one post from a newsgroup as some grounds for doing something. You obviously have an enormous "bee in your bonnet" about these gates and you should therefore raise your concerns through the correct channels if you have not already done so. FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. I assume you have also complained to FCC. The gates are very slow to open - and close, which frustrates people with tickets and rewards those without. If you were involved with their introduction, you must admit that they're far from perfect. I have not been involved in Prestige or ticket gates for 8 years. The KX gates are a further development of the Mk1 electric "slim" gate - I was involved with that development and while not perfect [1] I think it has done very well given it was used to extend LU gating and has been used extensively on the TOCs. The fact I can talk about the gates is a sign of my elephantine memory rather than knowledge of recent developments. [1] note that I do not believe you can create such a thing as there are too many necessary compromises between safety, speed and throughput. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
In message , Paul Corfield
writes On 11 Jan 2007 06:09:31 -0800, "Jonathan Morris" wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Oh not again. The problem won't go away by ignoring it!! With thanks to the two posters who have commented already I'll make one thing straight. I post here for *fun* - this isn't my job or even an extension of it. And most of the "serious" (albeit also "for fun") posters here realise that, Paul. Paul's contributions to the group are usually among the most informed and interesting that we have; it's good to have someone with a degree of inside knowledge on how systems were developed and why things are as they are. Indeed, one of the strengths of utl is that it attracts a variety of people with an amazing range of knowledge that usually makes for interesting discussions. Other Usenet groups I've been involved with have deteriorated over the years, while this one still seems to be both interesting and useful. I hope I add something to the group by commenting or sharing information. You do! If people are going to expect more from me than I can ever hope to deliver - and it's happened once before - I'll simply have to go. (Don't all cheer at once!). As you'll no doubt have gathered by now, that's the last thing that anyone here would want, whatever their views on individual subjects. While I'm sure it would be lovely to imagine that I'm personally accountable for everything that happens on LU I'm afraid I'm not. If it makes you feel better, I recently posted that being "face to face" with visitors makes me personally responsible for every conceivable issue in London. And quite a number of inconceivable ones to boot. So I know how you feel! Keep posting Paul; utl is the richer for it. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:16:13 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote: [...] Keep posting Paul; utl is the richer for it. IAWTP, in every particular. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Paul Scott wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message oups.com... From the March '06 TfL press release about the new SWT franchise [1]: "This means that from 2009, passengers on the on the South West Main Line will be able to take Oyster ticketing [...]" ....and... "The specification outlined demands that the successful bidder for the franchise will: * Provide Oyster validating or ITSO equipment at all stations on the South West Main Line franchise by 2009" However if you take a look at this May '06 TfL press release [2] you'll see that there are moves to integrate the proprietary Oyster smart card system with an ITSO system. This is from the end notes: "The Department for Transport has agreed to fund for upgrades to existing Oyster equipment in London to make Oyster gates and validators on the Underground, at major rail termini and on the buses, accept basic alternative Smartcard (ITSO) products. The expected cost is around £19m." Exactly how Oyster and ITSO smartcards will work together in practice isn't clear - not least because it probably hasn't yet been worked out! I think I've read that it is now do-able. There is an incentive for the manufacturers to make it work; an Oyster gadget is only of use in London, but an ITSO gadget could be sold nationally, and even internationally, opening up a much bigger market of potential purchasers to the gadget maker. Sounds like much more convergence is happening then - in the latest SWT mag they still simply refer to smartcards - I suspect that some negotiation will take place and the name 'Oyster' will survive - a bit like Mr Hoover's invention.... In London. Presuambly the names of other cards will also be used in their own areas (Yorcard in south Yorkshire, etc). While the compatibility issues does seem to get portrayed as evil TOCs conspiring against cuddly Oysters out of pure malice, the desire of DfT and the TOCs to have a national set of open standards rather than lots of individual incompatible proprietary systems does strike me a good idea. An awful lot of UK transport technology and planning seems to be a case of "I wouldn't start from here", and getting a standardised system might avoid another set of problems in the future. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Paul Corfield wrote:
I post here for *fun* - this isn't my job or even an extension of it. I hope I add something to the group by commenting or sharing information. If people are going to expect more from me than I can ever hope to deliver - and it's happened once before - I'll simply have to go. (Don't all cheer at once!). Time to go on the defensive here...! I am not holding you responsible WHATSOEVER, but when you stuck up for them and other people criticised them, I felt it was okay to ask what you thought about them. It doesn't matter either way, and it doesn't bother me /that/ much. Yes, I am concerned that people can avoid paying their fare as a result. Part of this is because in the space of a week I had two people double up on me, but I don't lose that much sleep over it. I'm not about to pin them down to the ground and place them under citizens arrest! Maybe I should (!) and the possible upside would be that you wouldn't be reading this now; I'd be in hospital, or worse. You got me wrong the last time too. I have an opinion, just like you do, and it seems to be shared by passengers and officials alike. You did say you were involved in their roll out so please excuse me if I didn't see elsewhere that it was a long time ago. I am not fully up to speed on when these gates first appeared anywhere, although I know Kings Cross was obviously not the first. While I'm sure it would be lovely to imagine that I'm personally accountable for everything that happens on LU I'm afraid I'm not. I can't take ownership of every issue or go round quoting one post from a newsgroup as some grounds for doing something. I have a great deal of respect for you, and your postings. I would have to say that the gates are about the only thing I have a beef about, so it's not all bad is it? You obviously have an enormous "bee in your bonnet" about these gates and you should therefore raise your concerns through the correct channels if you have not already done so. See my comment above. I have written on more than one occasion about them, but I write a lot (such is life for a journalist) and that doesn't mean it's a crusade or a personal attack on you. FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. I assume you have also complained to FCC. I don't really need to complain. I have contacts that I can and do speak to about such matters. I also deal with the PR for TfL and have met them before (albeit about things like the journey planner service and other online/mobile services and not so much the actual train service), but it isn't a big enough deal to start complaining about the gates. Should I meet anyone from TfL about something else, I may well slip it in to conversation - we shall see. I picked on you because you claimed to have some involvement and seem to know just about everything you need to know about the tube. As I was mistaken about all the facts, I can simply go away and whinge like everyone else in private. Doesn't change the fact that the gates are too slow though. :) I have not been involved in Prestige or ticket gates for 8 years. The KX gates are a further development of the Mk1 electric "slim" gate - I was involved with that development and while not perfect [1] I think it has done very well given it was used to extend LU gating and has been used extensively on the TOCs. The fact I can talk about the gates is a sign of my elephantine memory rather than knowledge of recent developments. Fair enough. Jonathan |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
In London. Presuambly the names of other cards will also be used in their own areas (Yorcard in south Yorkshire, etc). While the compatibility issues does seem to get portrayed as evil TOCs conspiring against cuddly Oysters out of pure malice, the desire of DfT and the TOCs to have a national set of open standards rather than lots of individual incompatible proprietary systems does strike me a good idea. An awful lot of UK transport technology and planning seems to be a case of "I wouldn't start from here", and getting a standardised system might avoid another set of problems in the future. Oystercards are now included in the ITSO spec, at page 88 of http://itso.org.uk/content/Specifica..._1_2006-10.pdf According to today's London Lite, Chiltern are to accept PAYG from June at the rest of its Greater London stations (Northolt Park to Wembley Stadium) . They are also to retail cards outside London. "We are also happy to announce that we are working very hard with Transport for London on being the first train company to sell Oyster Smartcards outside London. We will be launching this to our passengers in 2007" C2C are also reported to be enabling PAYG acceptance at Dagenham Dock and Rainham. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
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Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
Cambridge, allegedly. No sign of a planning application. Note that neither of these stations is run by FCC. I thought it might have been Hitchin. If they're going in at Cambridge, One must be installing them? Hatfield is in the process of getting new ticket machines (foundation work started this week) and hopefully they'll speed up the installation of the new fence/wall work to stop people climbing over. An RPI chased two kids that scaled the wall this morning, but didn't get them. Surprised she didn't demand the driver hold the train (as done at St Albans when someone jumped the gate, with the eventual result that a request went out on the train for police assistance) but at 0818, delayed trains DO count!! Jonathan |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Matthew wrote:
In London. Presuambly the names of other cards will also be used in their own areas (Yorcard in south Yorkshire, etc). While the compatibility issues does seem to get portrayed as evil TOCs conspiring against cuddly Oysters out of pure malice, the desire of DfT and the TOCs to have a national set of open standards rather than lots of individual incompatible proprietary systems does strike me a good idea. An awful lot of UK transport technology and planning seems to be a case of "I wouldn't start from here", and getting a standardised system might avoid another set of problems in the future. Oystercards are now included in the ITSO spec, at page 88 of http://itso.org.uk/content/Specifica..._1_2006-10.pdf According to today's London Lite, Chiltern are to accept PAYG from June at the rest of its Greater London stations (Northolt Park to Wembley Stadium) . They are also to retail cards outside London. "We are also happy to announce that we are working very hard with Transport for London on being the first train company to sell Oyster Smartcards outside London. We will be launching this to our passengers in 2007" C2C are also reported to be enabling PAYG acceptance at Dagenham Dock and Rainham. Interest stuff Matthew, thanks for that! I can't quite decipher from the ITSO specification exactly how Oyster and the ITSO smartcard standard will work together, but it appears that a combination smartcard that utilises both Oyster and the ITSO standard will be possible, which is logical enough. There's a myriad of implementation issues with regards to how Oyster would work with a national ITSO standard travel smartcard, but given that any such national smartcard is a long way off that's not something to worry about too much. What is important is ensuring that future Oyster equipment (Oyster scanners on gates and in ticket offices etc) will be able to handle ITSO-standard smartcards as well - and it appears that this will indeed be the case. Also very interesting stuff regarding Chiltern. The bit about them accepting Oyster PAYG for journeys within Greater London - i.e. within the zones - is just an (overdue) logical development. It's a pretty stupid situation from the passengers point of view where Oyster PAYG can't be used at some intermediate stations. The situation on the DC lines (Euston - Watford) at Kilburn High Street and South Hampstead will be resolved when TfL take over from Silverlink in November, which just leaves the 'one' lines from Liverpool Street up to / Seven Sisters/ Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to be sorted out. C2C accepting Oyster PAYG at Rainham and Degenham Dock is just a logical development in that they are of course the only two stations C2C has in the zones that don't currently accept PAYG. However the stuff about Chiltern offering Oyster smartcards outside of London is very interesting - so much so that I'm going to start a new thread about it! |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Jonathan Morris wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: I post here for *fun* - this isn't my job or even an extension of it. I hope I add something to the group by commenting or sharing information. If people are going to expect more from me than I can ever hope to deliver - and it's happened once before - I'll simply have to go. (Don't all cheer at once!). Time to go on the defensive here...! I am not holding you responsible WHATSOEVER, but when you stuck up for them and other people criticised them, I felt it was okay to ask what you thought about them. It doesn't matter either way, and it doesn't bother me /that/ much. Yes, I am concerned that people can avoid paying their fare as a result. Part of this is because in the space of a week I had two people double up on me, but I don't lose that much sleep over it. I'm not about to pin them down to the ground and place them under citizens arrest! Maybe I should (!) and the possible upside would be that you wouldn't be reading this now; I'd be in hospital, or worse. You got me wrong the last time too. I have an opinion, just like you do, and it seems to be shared by passengers and officials alike. You did say you were involved in their roll out so please excuse me if I didn't see elsewhere that it was a long time ago. I am not fully up to speed on when these gates first appeared anywhere, although I know Kings Cross was obviously not the first. While I'm sure it would be lovely to imagine that I'm personally accountable for everything that happens on LU I'm afraid I'm not. I can't take ownership of every issue or go round quoting one post from a newsgroup as some grounds for doing something. I have a great deal of respect for you, and your postings. I would have to say that the gates are about the only thing I have a beef about, so it's not all bad is it? You obviously have an enormous "bee in your bonnet" about these gates and you should therefore raise your concerns through the correct channels if you have not already done so. See my comment above. I have written on more than one occasion about them, but I write a lot (such is life for a journalist) and that doesn't mean it's a crusade or a personal attack on you. FCC are already noticing the problem with the new gates on the GN branch, where people are managing to get through pretty easily. I assume you have also complained to FCC. I don't really need to complain. I have contacts that I can and do speak to about such matters. I also deal with the PR for TfL and have met them before (albeit about things like the journey planner service and other online/mobile services and not so much the actual train service), but it isn't a big enough deal to start complaining about the gates. Should I meet anyone from TfL about something else, I may well slip it in to conversation - we shall see. I picked on you because you claimed to have some involvement and seem to know just about everything you need to know about the tube. As I was mistaken about all the facts, I can simply go away and whinge like everyone else in private. Doesn't change the fact that the gates are too slow though. :) I have not been involved in Prestige or ticket gates for 8 years. The KX gates are a further development of the Mk1 electric "slim" gate - I was involved with that development and while not perfect [1] I think it has done very well given it was used to extend LU gating and has been used extensively on the TOCs. The fact I can talk about the gates is a sign of my elephantine memory rather than knowledge of recent developments. Fair enough. Jonathan I've no desire to start a spat, that's neither my style nor how things are done here on utl. However I would just say that it's possible you've slightly misjudged the tone of utl - we don't do "picking" on people. I'd add that your mild invective seems to have been fired by a misunderstanding of the situation (I'm going to avoid the rather obvious ribbing one could make about facts and journalists). Paul has not AFAICS specifically stuck up for the KX gates whatsoever - as he says himself, he was involved in the development of their predecessor, the Mk1 slim gate. If you search the archives you'll see that these new KX gates have not got a good write up (I've no idea if the gates FCC has used on the GN are the conventional Mk1 or the newer model as used at KX). I'm quite sure that if someone in LU came up to Paul and said "hey, our new gates are the bees knees aren't they" he would demur, but I suspect that the issue is well known about in LU so no-one would have the temerity to say such a thing! Anyway, the man posts here in his spare time, in an unofficial capacity yet has the honesty to both post in his own name (something I've totally failed to do) and not only acknoledge that he works for LU but discuss some of the past projects he's been involved in. He has readily spoken of some of the compromises that had to be made when it came to gating the whole LU network, of the total reluctance of the TOCs to even believe that the Oyster system was ever going to happen let alone get involved in it, of the good and bad aspects of LU's working culture and many other things. And I'm not suggesting that Paul is a wilting violet, far from it, but why on earth would anyone wish to finish the day at work and then sit down to read a load of people giving him a hard time - especially for something he wasn't involved in. I don't think I'd stick around. OK, thankfully my spiel is over! I eagerly await accusations of my outright brass neckery, considering my relative usenet newbie status compared to your pedigree ;-) By the by, I did once have someone try to sneek ahead of me through ticket gates. They didn't succeed and ended up on the floor, much to the amusement of the LU staff (and, dare I say, much to my satisfaction!). |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Mizter T wrote:
Paul has not AFAICS specifically stuck up for the KX gates whatsoever - as he says himself, he was involved in the development of their predecessor, the Mk1 slim gate. If you search the archives you'll see that these new KX gates have not got a good write up (I've no idea if the gates FCC has used on the GN are the conventional Mk1 or the newer model as used at KX). I think if you search the archives you'll see that I talked about it before with Paul C, hence the 'not again' comment. I was led to believe that Paul had been more involved than he was, but as I wasn't talking in a professional journalist capacity (I am not working 24/7), perhaps I didn't try and establish the real facts as hard as I should! Slap my wrists by all means! However, I am not having a go at Paul about the gates. I am not sure why anyone should take a comment so personally - I didn't think he designed or built them, nor installed them. I have used newsgroups since the early 1990s and it's all about discussing things and sharing opinions. People do, as a matter of course, disagree - but it's never personal. Jonathan |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Jonathan Morris wrote:
Mizter T wrote: Paul has not AFAICS specifically stuck up for the KX gates whatsoever - as he says himself, he was involved in the development of their predecessor, the Mk1 slim gate. If you search the archives you'll see that these new KX gates have not got a good write up (I've no idea if the gates FCC has used on the GN are the conventional Mk1 or the newer model as used at KX). I think if you search the archives you'll see that I talked about it before with Paul C, hence the 'not again' comment. I was led to believe that Paul had been more involved than he was, but as I wasn't talking in a professional journalist capacity (I am not working 24/7), perhaps I didn't try and establish the real facts as hard as I should! Slap my wrists by all means! However, I am not having a go at Paul about the gates. I am not sure why anyone should take a comment so personally - I didn't think he designed or built them, nor installed them. I have used newsgroups since the early 1990s and it's all about discussing things and sharing opinions. People do, as a matter of course, disagree - but it's never personal. Jonathan I certainly didn't intend to suggest you were posting in your capacity as a journalist! I didn't realise, as there were no clues in the thread, that you and Paul had discussed this before. The only point I was trying to make about Paul - and I've never met the guy - is that he has put his head above the parapet and declared his allegiance - well, the organisation he works for at least - and is thus more liable to having people assail him for said organisations failings. Others on this groups are, to some extent, in the same boat, but perhaps because of his visibility he's more likely to be on the receiving end. I don't know the specifics of why he unsubscribed from utl in the past (I could search the archives but it really doesn't interest me that much), just a vague notion that the hassle wasn't worth it. It would be a shame to lose him from utl, he is one of many great contributors that makes this newsgroup worthwhile. Anyway I'm rambling, and given that I would have had no idea what a newsgroup was in the early '90s I think it's probably time I stopped! All I'll say is I look forward to future discourse with you and many others on matters capital transportational here on utl. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
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Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Mizter T wrote:
The situation on the DC lines (Euston - Watford) at Kilburn High Street and South Hampstead will be resolved when TfL take over from Silverlink in November, which just leaves the 'one' lines from Liverpool Street up to / Seven Sisters/ Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to be sorted out. C2C accepting Oyster PAYG at Rainham and Degenham Dock is just a logical development in that they are of course the only two stations C2C has in the zones that don't currently accept PAYG. Don't some of the late night services stop at Maryland & Forest Gate? There's been a lot of advertising in leaflets (and rather less at stations managed by "one") that PAYG is not valid there. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
Mizter T wrote:
Matthew wrote: In London. Presuambly the names of other cards will also be used in their own areas (Yorcard in south Yorkshire, etc). While the compatibility issues does seem to get portrayed as evil TOCs conspiring against cuddly Oysters out of pure malice, the desire of DfT and the TOCs to have a national set of open standards rather than lots of individual incompatible proprietary systems does strike me a good idea. An awful lot of UK transport technology and planning seems to be a case of "I wouldn't start from here", and getting a standardised system might avoid another set of problems in the future. Oystercards are now included in the ITSO spec, at page 88 of http://itso.org.uk/content/Specifica..._1_2006-10.pdf According to today's London Lite, Chiltern are to accept PAYG from June at the rest of its Greater London stations (Northolt Park to Wembley Stadium) . They are also to retail cards outside London. "We are also happy to announce that we are working very hard with Transport for London on being the first train company to sell Oyster Smartcards outside London. We will be launching this to our passengers in 2007" C2C are also reported to be enabling PAYG acceptance at Dagenham Dock and Rainham. Interest stuff Matthew, thanks for that! I can't quite decipher from the ITSO specification exactly how Oyster and the ITSO smartcard standard will work together, but it appears that a combination smartcard that utilises both Oyster and the ITSO standard will be possible, which is logical enough. There's a myriad of implementation issues with regards to how Oyster would work with a national ITSO standard travel smartcard, but given that any such national smartcard is a long way off that's not something to worry about too much. Something can handle PAYG for a priv dog travelling first class from St Ives to Kyle of Lochalsh via sleeper, LU and Denton (with Plusbus) is probably a long way off, but other more regional smart cards are out there. A card which could be used on both Tramlink and Supertram or the Underground and the Subway isn't unimaginable. What is important is ensuring that future Oyster equipment (Oyster scanners on gates and in ticket offices etc) will be able to handle ITSO-standard smartcards as well - and it appears that this will indeed be the case. Also very interesting stuff regarding Chiltern. The bit about them accepting Oyster PAYG for journeys within Greater London - i.e. within the zones - is just an (overdue) logical development. It's a pretty stupid situation from the passengers point of view where Oyster PAYG can't be used at some intermediate stations. The situation on the DC lines (Euston - Watford) at Kilburn High Street and South Hampstead will be resolved when TfL take over from Silverlink in November, which just leaves the 'one' lines from Liverpool Street up to / Seven Sisters/ Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to be sorted out. C2C accepting Oyster PAYG at Rainham and Degenham Dock is just a logical development in that they are of course the only two stations C2C has in the zones that don't currently accept PAYG. Did I see somewhere that c2c want to have Oyster (/ITSO) valid for their whole network? About 10 years ago I went to a talk by the then-MD, who mentioned plans to gate the whole lot and introduce whizzo high-tech new tickets. However the stuff about Chiltern offering Oyster smartcards outside of London is very interesting - so much so that I'm going to start a new thread about it! -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:14:39 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
The situation on the DC lines (Euston - Watford) at Kilburn High Street and South Hampstead will be resolved when TfL take over from Silverlink in November, which just leaves the 'one' lines from Liverpool Street up to / Seven Sisters/ Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to be sorted out. C2C accepting Oyster PAYG at Rainham and Degenham Dock is just a logical development in that they are of course the only two stations C2C has in the zones that don't currently accept PAYG. Don't some of the late night services stop at Maryland & Forest Gate? There's been a lot of advertising in leaflets (and rather less at stations managed by "one") that PAYG is not valid there. No, they pass through non-stop. However, the stations are still physically on the line of route between Liverpool Street and Upminster, so if it weren't for the prohibition, you'd be able to use PAYG to them on 'one' services. |
Ken to TOCs - end of January deadline to sign up for Oyster PAYG
On 12 Jan 2007 05:02:01 -0800, Jonathan Morris wrote:
Paul has not AFAICS specifically stuck up for the KX gates whatsoever - as he says himself, he was involved in the development of their predecessor, the Mk1 slim gate. If you search the archives you'll see that these new KX gates have not got a good write up (I've no idea if the gates FCC has used on the GN are the conventional Mk1 or the newer model as used at KX). I think if you search the archives you'll see that I talked about it before with Paul C, hence the 'not again' comment. I was led to believe that Paul had been more involved than he was, but as I wasn't talking in a professional journalist capacity (I am not working 24/7), perhaps I didn't try and establish the real facts as hard as I should! Slap my wrists by all means! However, I am not having a go at Paul about the gates. I am not sure why anyone should take a comment so personally - I didn't think he designed or built them, nor installed them. I have used newsgroups since the early 1990s and it's all about discussing things and sharing opinions. People do, as a matter of course, disagree - but it's never personal. I think it's worth adding that usually, when someone replies to a post, they're directing their comments at the group in general, rather than specifically the poster of the post they're replying to. This is often the case even when the reply seems rather direct. |
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