TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

Selected excerpts follow:

----------

The main gap in payments on Oyster card remains on surface rail where the
train operating companies are yet to accept Oyster pre-pay. This affects
180,000 passengers a day.

In May 2006, the Mayor offered a funding package of £20m to the train
operators, which will finance the technology to accept the pay as you go
system to be bought and installed at every station in Zones 1-6.
The companies have until the 31 January to accept this offer.

[...]

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "Around three quarters of
journeys on London's buses and Underground are now paid for by Oyster card
compared to only five per cent by cash - bringing huge time savings to
passengers and the transport system.

"Ten million Oyster cards have now been taken out by the public.


"But most of the train operating companies still continue to deprive their
passengers of the benefits of Oyster payment for single journeys with
pre-pay.

"With the introduction of a zone system for rail fares in London, and my
offer to train operators to pay them £20m to install Oyster equipment, there
is no reason why the train operating companies cannot sign up to our
proposals by 31st January.

----------



I wasn't aware there was a deadline to the Mayor's offer to pay for
installation of the Oyster kit, at least not such an immediate one. I'm sure
there are a number of reasons why TOCs might be wary of Oyster PAYG. However
two of the TOCs strongest arguments against getting involved have now been
largely nixed.

One reason the TOCs were diffident - that they'd lose the opportunity to set
their own fares - no longer exists, as the DfT decreed that from the 2
January just gone all London rail fares were be zonally priced. Another
possible reason for the TOCs objection, that of fraud, has largely been
neutered by the fact that passengers using Oyster PAYG (on the Tube and the
few participating NR routes) are now penalised if they don't touch-in *and*
touch-out for each and every journey they make - thus providing a very
strong incentive for them to pay the right fare, and a strong disincentive
to anyone attempting to abuse the system. There are other arguments, but I
don't think any of them are really that convincing, especially when weighed
against the advantages that rail passengers would benefit from.

It remains to be seen whether the Mayor's brinkmanship will win over the
TOCs - we shall see.

"Ten million Oyster cards have now been taken out by the public.

Given that the Greater London Urban Area has a population of ~8.5 million, I
wonder how many individual customers that is made up of? For example, I have
three cards as they insist on issuing a new student card each year (leaving
the old ones active but with the discount switched off). Other members of my
family have a Freedom Pass and an Oyster for PAYG. I wonder if the Freedom
Passes are included in the figure?

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=10389

[snip]

I wasn't aware there was a deadline to the Mayor's offer to pay for
installation of the Oyster kit, at least not such an immediate one. I'm sure
there are a number of reasons why TOCs might be wary of Oyster PAYG. However
two of the TOCs strongest arguments against getting involved have now been
largely nixed.

If you think about it it does make sense to have a deadline but I wasn't
aware of it until today. Without it some TOCs would "negotiate" until
their franchises expired when it will become mandatory upon reletting by
the DfT.

One reason the TOCs were diffident - that they'd lose the opportunity to set
their own fares - no longer exists, as the DfT decreed that from the 2
January just gone all London rail fares were be zonally priced. Another
possible reason for the TOCs objection, that of fraud, has largely been
neutered by the fact that passengers using Oyster PAYG (on the Tube and the
few participating NR routes) are now penalised if they don't touch-in *and*
touch-out for each and every journey they make - thus providing a very
strong incentive for them to pay the right fare, and a strong disincentive
to anyone attempting to abuse the system. There are other arguments, but I
don't think any of them are really that convincing, especially when weighed
against the advantages that rail passengers would benefit from.

I think you might be underestimating the issues the TOCs have. This is
about money and information about customers - both crucial to TOCs.
Issues such as apportionment, settlement, commission, equipment
maintenance / reliability, card management and usage / customer data
were big issues years ago. Now the thing is real and working and
passengers are voting with their feet in some cases TOCs will be feeling
the effects of Oyster. For those not under the DfT "cosh" of new
franchises they have a lot to play for and I suspect they are testing to
see whether £20m can be made to become £30-40m. Ken is at risk of making
himself a hostage to fortune as he does not have the power to compel
acceptance and there are legally binding agreements sitting in the
background that have to be dealt with if we are not to see things get
worse rather than better.

It remains to be seen whether the Mayor's brinkmanship will win over the
TOCs - we shall see.

Indeed it does. I hope we get to the right place with this but I suspect
there'll be no settlement until the very last minute.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't
apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.)

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

"Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment
gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute
compared to 15 a minute."

That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in,
whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go
through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't
apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.)

You can? Please tell me.

I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is
possible given the western sense of personal space.

Gates of alternative designs on systems in the far east can handle far
more. There is a different sense of personal space in places like Taipei
and Tokyo where crush loading is more readily accepted.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is
keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

"Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment
gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute
compared to 15 a minute."

That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in,
whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go
through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge.

Just wait for the light to go orange, and you can pass. It never screws up,
and if it would, it would behave like paper tickets, and close before you
could get through, or at least give you a fair chance to not enter and
correct it. But, as I say, I've yet to have it happen to me, and I've been
using oyster PAYG since the beginning.

But please, feel free to congest the gates. It really helps, I hear.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't
apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.)

You can? Please tell me.

Hmm, on further review...

I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong

That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate.

while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is
possible given the western sense of personal space.

I think that's based on how long it takes to read the card and return
to a state able to accept the next card being 1.5s - I don't know if
this is accurate, but it's plausible.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:25:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, Mizter T wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

"Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground payment
gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets - 40 a minute
compared to 15 a minute."

That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight in,
whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous person to go
through and the gates to close first, in case I pick up a £4 charge.

Then you're wasting your time and throwing away a clear benefit of
Oyster. As soon as the light goes orange, you can touch in/out. As
soon as the light goes green, you can go through the gate, knowing
that your card has been read and accepted.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:12:17 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't
apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.)

You can? Please tell me.

Hmm, on further review...

I did wonder if I'd missed something.

I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong

That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate.

25ppm is the planning capacity per walkway.

while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is
possible given the western sense of personal space.

I think that's based on how long it takes to read the card and return
to a state able to accept the next card being 1.5s - I don't know if
this is accurate, but it's plausible.

I've seen (and taken part in) a demonstration at Cubic's UK offices
where we got just under 40 people a minute through a gate. The paddles
never moved as the ticket transport / target was permanently activated
and thus no instruction to close was given.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!