Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

B200

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On 19 Feb 2007 06:50:17 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter, but after a couple of years they
went to driver control at all times. I know not why. However, TTBOMK,
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

In message . com,
Boltar writes
Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.


They always had people stood in front of them, and lets face it how
often these days is it so cold that a bit of fresh air through the
carriage isn't welcome ?

Personally I'd like to see all door buttons gone.


--
Edward Cowling London UK

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 3:03 pm, James Farrar wrote:
On 19 Feb 2007 06:50:17 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter, but after a couple of years they
went to driver control at all times. I know not why. However, TTBOMK,
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.


The total ceasing of use of door buttons seems to coincide with the
opening of the Jubilee Line Extension in 1999, where there are doors
on the platform as well. Presumably there wouldn't be a logical way
of combining the platform doors with passenger control (partially
sited people aware of platform doors opening and walking into closed
train doors etc), and it would be confusing to use them at some
stations but not others on the same line.

I don't know why that necessarily affects other lines or why the
trains for the JLE were built with buttons in the first place.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 3:15 pm, "MIG" wrote:
On Feb 19, 3:03 pm, James Farrar wrote:

On 19 Feb 2007 06:50:17 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter, but after a couple of years they
went to driver control at all times. I know not why. However, TTBOMK,
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.

The total ceasing of use of door buttons seems to coincide with the
opening of the Jubilee Line Extension in 1999, where there are doors
on the platform as well. Presumably there wouldn't be a logical way
of combining the platform doors with passenger control (partially
sited people aware of platform doors opening and walking into closed
train doors etc), and it would be confusing to use them at some
stations but not others on the same line.

I don't know why that necessarily affects other lines or why the
trains for the JLE were built with buttons in the first place.



Oh I love that typo. Partially sighted obviously. But the result
might be someone being partially sited ...

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

James Farrar wrote:

They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter,

I'm not sure if it was around then or earlier but LU posted a number of very
self-satisfied adverts around the Central Line about how great the buttons
were because when trains are waiting for long times at open stations you can
close the doors and so not get so wet/cold. Now they've stopped.

Most if not all NR suburban commuter trains have the option to close, and
the trains are designed to stop cold wind circulating through carriages if
they are waiting at exposed stations with doors open for a while. Why is so
little effort made for this on the tube? It's often cited as a corroborating
reason for the Epping - Ongar service never being attractive.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 3:12 pm, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
In message . com,
Boltar writes

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They always had people stood in front of them, and lets face it how
often these days is it so cold that a bit of fresh air through the
carriage isn't welcome ?

Personally I'd like to see all door buttons gone.



I mentioned somewhere, maybe uk.railway, that close buttons are a
safety hazard in crowded trains. I have accidentally leant on a
button in an NR train and closed the door on someone who was getting
off.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 3:03 pm, James Farrar wrote:
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.

More money wasted. Still, I think they should have left them on the D
stock even if not working since they look a lot better than the
painted over metal plate they've been replaced with on the outside
which rather jars with the upmarket look of the rest of the refurb
(though they don't seem to have bothered repainting the drivers doors
inside the cars which look just as much of a scratched mess as
before). All in all a bit of a half hearted effort IMO.

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On 19 Feb 2007 07:23:56 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

On Feb 19, 3:12 pm, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
In message . com,
Boltar writes

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They always had people stood in front of them, and lets face it how
often these days is it so cold that a bit of fresh air through the
carriage isn't welcome ?

Personally I'd like to see all door buttons gone.



I mentioned somewhere, maybe uk.railway, that close buttons are a
safety hazard in crowded trains. I have accidentally leant on a
button in an NR train and closed the door on someone who was getting
off.

I once acidentally leant on a passenger alarm handle, thus activating
it, but I don't see them removing them!

(Though to be fair, they have now screwed metal plates over them so
you have to pull the handle at the top, you can't push the bottom of
it...)

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 3:42 pm, James Farrar wrote:
On 19 Feb 2007 07:23:56 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:





On Feb 19, 3:12 pm, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
In message . com,
Boltar writes

Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

They always had people stood in front of them, and lets face it how
often these days is it so cold that a bit of fresh air through the
carriage isn't welcome ?

Personally I'd like to see all door buttons gone.

I mentioned somewhere, maybe uk.railway, that close buttons are a
safety hazard in crowded trains. I have accidentally leant on a
button in an NR train and closed the door on someone who was getting
off.

I once acidentally leant on a passenger alarm handle, thus activating
it, but I don't see them removing them!

(Though to be fair, they have now screwed metal plates over them so
you have to pull the handle at the top, you can't push the bottom of
it...)-


An unfortunate thing to do but, unlike a closing door, it wouldn't
actually squash someone and risk any other number of consequences,
such as falling, bits getting caught etc.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

MIG wrote:

An unfortunate thing to do but, unlike a closing door, it wouldn't
actually squash someone and risk any other number of consequences,
such as falling, bits getting caught etc.

Are the doors really that forceful?

Why can't the doors be equipped with a bounce-back feature that reopens
them if they hit an obstruction? I can understand not implementing such
a feature when the doors are closing so the train can leave the station,
but if the doors are closing merely for passenger comfort (and the train
isn't about to leave just yet), then such a feature wouldn't delay service.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 19, 5:16 pm, David of Broadway
wrote:
MIG wrote:
An unfortunate thing to do but, unlike a closing door, it wouldn't
actually squash someone and risk any other number of consequences,
such as falling, bits getting caught etc.

Are the doors really that forceful?

Why can't the doors be equipped with a bounce-back feature that reopens
them if they hit an obstruction? I can understand not implementing such
a feature when the doors are closing so the train can leave the station,
but if the doors are closing merely for passenger comfort (and the train
isn't about to leave just yet), then such a feature wouldn't delay service.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA


Hitting someone who is getting on or off a train is likely to cause an
accident. Who knows how frail or surprised they might be. It doesn't
need to crush their bones to be dangerous.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

I have seen them used once on the Drain, during the weekend. 'Came as a bit
of a surprise, to be honest.

"James Farrar" wrote in message
...
They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter, but after a couple of years they
went to driver control at all times. I know not why. However, TTBOMK,
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:
Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able to reach
them.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

MIG wrote:

Hitting someone who is getting on or off a train is likely to cause an
accident. Who knows how frail or surprised they might be. It doesn't
need to crush their bones to be dangerous.

/Likely/? I think you're exaggerating. At least around here, people
get hit by the doors all the time, and the vast majority of the time,
the only problems that ensue are train delays and black-striped clothing.

Again, why not have a sensor that will painlessly reopen the door if it
encounters an obstruction? Perhaps the sensor should be disabled if the
train is about to leave, but if the door is closing only due to
passenger request, there's no harm in reopening if necessary.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 20, 3:03 am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Boltar wrote:
Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems they
occilate between having them then not on various train types over the
years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a bit of a
retrograde step.

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:
On Feb 20, 3:03 am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Boltar wrote:
Can't LU make their minds up if they want these or not? It seems
they occilate between having them then not on various train types
over the years. Why have they been taken of the D stock? Seems a
bit of a retrograde step.

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able
to reach them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

That isn't the way the TfL disability unit thinks.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:


I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Have a ride on the Jubilee Line - the part with the accessible platforms.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 20, 2:25 pm, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Have a ride on the Jubilee Line - the part with the accessible platforms.

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

In article . com,
Boltar wrote:
I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

Folk in wheelchairs can be more nimble than mothers with prams; some of
them will have been 'wheeling' for years, but mothers stop pushing prams
as soon as they can. This means the wheelchair user will be more practiced.

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

If mothers with prams can do it, why shouldn't people with wheelchairs?
And why suddenly qualify with "in the rush hour".

People with wheelchairs travel on the accessible parts of the Tube in
the following manner: go through the wide gates, using Oyster card.
Use lift to descend to platform level. Get on train.
Repeat in reverse order at destination.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:


I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair

I have never seen a blue whale with my own eyes.
But I don't doubt they exist.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

In message .com,
Boltar writes

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the past two weeks, I've noticed 3
wheelchair users getting on my train.

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

In message , John
Hearns writes
Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that
section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair

I have never seen a blue whale with my own eyes.
But I don't doubt they exist.

g

You haven't seen a blue whale? I feel sorry for you and your limited
experience of life ;)

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Paul G wrote:


You haven't seen a blue whale? I feel sorry for you and your limited
experience of life ;)

I have seen plenty of pink elephants though. Mostly late on a Friday night.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

"James Farrar" wrote in message
...


They haven't been used for, ooh, seven or eight years now.

When I first moved to London (1997) the doors were only
passenger-controlled in the winter, but after a couple of years they
went to driver control at all times. I know not why. However, TTBOMK,
*no* Underground trains that have passenger-controlled door buttons
actually use them any more.

I've been trying to find evidence for this unsuccessfully, but I think I
once heard that the passenger door control is not normally used because it
slows the service down, because opening the doors takes longer at stations.
Individuals randomly positioned on the platform aren't lined up with the
doors, and aren't as fast as the driver, who knows exactly 'when' to operate
them...

Paul S

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 20, 4:13 pm, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

If mothers with prams can do it, why shouldn't people with wheelchairs?

Because it normally involves lots of people shuffling out the way.

And why suddenly qualify with "in the rush hour".

Umm , because its busy then? Sorry , was I making this too
complicated?

People with wheelchairs travel on the accessible parts of the Tube in
the following manner: go through the wide gates, using Oyster card.
Use lift to descend to platform level. Get on train.
Repeat in reverse order at destination.

So presumably all the people standing in the train doors who can
barely get on themselves miraculously just melt out the way as soon as
they see a wheelchair? Perhaps there are magic wheelchairs that shrink
so they're only a few inches wide?

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 20, 10:23 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message .com,
Boltar writes

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the past two weeks, I've noticed 3
wheelchair users getting on my train.

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On 21 Feb 2007 08:07:13 -0800, "Boltar" wrote:

On Feb 20, 10:23 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message .com,
Boltar writes

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the past two weeks, I've noticed 3
wheelchair users getting on my train.

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

I have seen people on the Picc in wheelchairs and on other lines. One
amazing chap was on the Vic Line. He had some mobility and was pretty
fit and happily bounced his wheelchair up into the carriage, made
himself at home in the vestibule - no special spaces on 67 stock - and
happily bounced off again at Walthamstow Central. He wheeled himself
round to the escalators and got himself up out of his chair and hung on
to his chair and the escalator and got himself up to the ticket hall. He
then somehow physically dragged himself up the stairs to the "one"
platforms. I was surprised and impressed at his stamina and
determination. Now he shouldn't have to do all that but nonetheless some
disabled people clearly will do it so they have their mobility.

I'm not pretending here that we're talking about big numbers - we
aren't. However you not seeing them doesn't mean they don't exist nor
that they don't make the effort to travel in spite of the difficulties.

I equally can't understand how blind people can use the tube but there
are loads of them using the tube every day. There are several regulars
at Walthamstow who use the tube and the buses.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:
On Feb 20, 4:13 pm, John Hearns wrote:
And why suddenly qualify with "in the rush hour".

Umm , because its busy then? Sorry , was I making this too
complicated?

Only for yourself.

People with wheelchairs travel on the accessible parts of the Tube in
the following manner: go through the wide gates, using Oyster card.
Use lift to descend to platform level. Get on train.
Repeat in reverse order at destination.

So presumably all the people standing in the train doors who can
barely get on themselves miraculously just melt out the way as soon as
they see a wheelchair? Perhaps there are magic wheelchairs that shrink
so they're only a few inches wide?

Are you seriously arguing that people in wheelchair do not travel on the
Tube? If so you are wrong.
--
Michael Hoffman

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Feb 21, 4:25 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I equally can't understand how blind people can use the tube but there
are loads of them using the tube every day. There are several regulars
at Walthamstow who use the tube and the buses.

I've seen quite a few blind people. I'm guessing that using the tube
is no worse than having to negotiate a busy street and having to guess
what shop you're standing outside. People seem happy to help them when
directions are required. Not sure how keen people would be however if
a disabled guy wanted help getting himself and his chair up some
stairs.

B2003

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Mike Bristow wrote:

In article . com,
Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

Folk in wheelchairs can be more nimble than mothers with prams; some of
them will have been 'wheeling' for years, but mothers stop pushing prams
as soon as they can.

Not sure i'd agree with that - there are plenty of women pushing around
kids who are clearly old enough to walk. A friend of mine has a bee in her
bonnet about it and always points them out, so i know this to be true!

tom

--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that worked. -- Gall's Law

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, John Hearns wrote:

Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair

I have never seen a blue whale with my own eyes.

Oh, you should get down to the Natural History Museum, then. They've a
very good one there.

tom

--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that worked. -- Gall's Law

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

In message , Tom
Anderson writes
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, John Hearns wrote:

Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair

I have never seen a blue whale with my own eyes.

Oh, you should get down to the Natural History Museum, then. They've a
very good one there.

I think that's actually made of plaster...

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:

what shop you're standing outside. People seem happy to help them when
directions are required. Not sure how keen people would be however if
a disabled guy wanted help getting himself and his chair up some
stairs.
As has been pointed out to you, more and more stations now have lifts.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:

And why suddenly qualify with "in the rush hour".

Umm , because its busy then? Sorry , was I making this too
complicated?

Your original post made no mention of the rush hour.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:


Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday.
Piccadilly line?
Lifts are Green Park, for interchange with Jubilee.
Hammersmith for interchange with the District.
Earls Court for interchange with the District.
Heathrow terminals.
Caledonian Road.

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

Oh, you should get down to the Natural History Museum, then. They've a
very good one there.

I think that's actually made of plaster...

God help us if Boltar ever clocks that - he'll be denying that blue
whales exist.
(They do - don't they? Its not some big joke is it?)

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

Boltar wrote:


I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

Same way your parents with prams do - push them.

Oh, and just to cheer you up the new Met/Hammersmith/District platforms
at St Pancras have lifts. They'll even be able to go on holiday to France.

(Before anyone says it, of course there are of course existing lifts
from the Jubilee to Waterloo Eurostar concourse)

Passenger door buttons gone on refurb D Stock
 

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:22:19 +0000, John Hearns
wrote:

Boltar wrote:


Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday.
Piccadilly line?
Lifts are Green Park, for interchange with Jubilee.
Hammersmith for interchange with the District.
Earls Court for interchange with the District.
Heathrow terminals.
Caledonian Road.

You've missed Hounslow East, Hounslow West that has a stair lift and
Hillingdon (for Uxbridge Line trains).

Sudbury Town (IIRC) has level access from both platforms and Uxbridge is
on the flat too.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!