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Old March 14th 07, 01:57 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL

Was just thinking about the ELL (yes I truly have no life) and got to
thinking:

When the East London line is closed this December, will the A stock be
used to reinforce any services on the Metropolitan line, or to
implement the change of the terminus from Aldgate to Barking before
the introduction of S stock? Or will they just be stored away and used
as spare sets in case of breakdown?

Edd


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Old March 14th 07, 02:57 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL

On 14 Mar, 15:26, John Hearns wrote:
Was just thinking about the ELL (yes I truly have no life) and got to
thinking:


On the subject of the ELL, how is it going to be electrified?
(Yes, I know it has electrification at the moment and steam trains no
longer run under the river).
Perhaps a stupid question, but on any part of the proposed orbital
railway (ie. ELL, NLL etc) are there any overhead lines?
I guess not.


Currently, NLL is electrified 2 tracks OHLE from Acton to Camden Road,
then one track OHLE and 2 tracks DC to Dalston, then 2 tracks combined
OHLE and DC to Lea Junction, then DC to Stratford:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...NLL.pdf#page=6

SLL is third-rail-only, and the WLL is third-rail south of North Pole
and AC-electrified north of it. GOBLIN is unelectrified except for a
few bits round Barking and (IIRC) Walthamstow.

In the future, the Cross-London RUS suggests converting the NLL east
of Camden Road to fully AC-electrified and leaving the WLL as-is:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...us.pdf#page=36

The SLL will remain third-rail-only until the ex-Southern Region
converts to overhead AC, which will be never. If the GOBLIN is
electrified, it will be overhead AC.

This leaves the ELL itself. I'm fairly sure this is third-rail from
New Cross / New Cross Gate to Dalston: although I haven't read
anything explicitly stating that this is the case, none of the TfL
publicity pics have OHLE masts in them and I'd be sceptical that the
tunnels have the necessary clearance.

Beyond Dalston, there's an implication that either the ELL
Electrostars (which will continue initially to Highbury, maybe later
further on) may need to be dual-voltage with a switch-over at Dalston,
that the conversion of the NLL to OHLE east of Camden will not take
place, or that a dual-voltage section of track will be required
between Highbury and Dalston.

Not sure which is happening here. One suggestion is to re-instate four-
tracking between Camden and Dalston, which would be sensible, and then
to dedicate one pair of tracks between Highbury and Dalston
exclusively to the ELL with the other shared between NLL and freight,
which would be barking mad, given that ELL and NLL trains will run at
the same speed in the same direction making the same stops and freight
won't. But if this did happen then you'd expect the NLL tracks to be
OHLE and the ELL tracks to be DC.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

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Old March 14th 07, 03:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL

John B wrote:

This leaves the ELL itself. I'm fairly sure this is third-rail from
New Cross / New Cross Gate to Dalston: although I haven't read
anything explicitly stating that this is the case, none of the TfL
publicity pics have OHLE masts in them and I'd be sceptical that the
tunnels have the necessary clearance.

That's what I thought. Brunel probably didn't leave enough room for
future overhead electrification.


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Old March 14th 07, 03:15 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL

On 14 Mar, 15:42, "Paul Scott" wrote:

The ELL will be DC third rail - and I shall be very surprised if in due
course it isn't run by Southern, as contractors to TfL as the services will
have to be timetabled into the existing paths, indeed the extension of the
railway to Crystal Palace and Croydon will subsume certain existing
services.


Current bidders for London Overground (= NLL, ELLx, WLL, GOBLIN) are
MTR/Laing (Chiltern) and GoVia (Southern). AIUI the Southern franchise
deal allows for transferring certain services to ELLx when it opens,
so this side of things won't be a problem whoever wins.

Network Rail is supposed to be able to resolve timetable conflicts
between different operators, and doesn't do a terrible job: for
example, although the South Central and South Eastern franchises have
been under the same control for much of privatisation (Connex and now
GoVia), the period when GoVia and SRA were running South Central and
South Eastern respectively was not a disaster.

Also, the LO franchise is rather different from the South Central
franchise, in that it's far more tightly specced and responsible to
TfL - much of the strategic/planning work that GoVia does for Southern
will be done by TfL for LO.

So overall, I don't think GoVia has the kind of advantage in bidding
that you're suggesting - although they might win by default if it
transpires that Laing's new owners don't have the same interest in
rail as the previous management.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

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Old March 14th 07, 03:20 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL


"John B" wrote in message
oups.com...


Not sure which is happening here. One suggestion is to re-instate four-
tracking between Camden and Dalston, which would be sensible, and then
to dedicate one pair of tracks between Highbury and Dalston
exclusively to the ELL with the other shared between NLL and freight,
which would be barking mad, given that ELL and NLL trains will run at
the same speed in the same direction making the same stops and freight
won't. But if this did happen then you'd expect the NLL tracks to be
OHLE and the ELL tracks to be DC.


I'm just searching for evidence that the ELL will be third rail but without
success so far - however the 4 car rolling stock for ELL is certainly
announced by TfL as 'single voltage' and unless they are going to put up new
OHLE all the way to Crystal Palace and West Croydon, that will have to be
DC...

Paul S


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Old March 14th 07, 03:49 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL


"John B" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 14 Mar, 15:42, "Paul Scott" wrote:

The ELL will be DC third rail - and I shall be very surprised if in due
course it isn't run by Southern, as contractors to TfL as the services
will
have to be timetabled into the existing paths, indeed the extension of
the
railway to Crystal Palace and Croydon will subsume certain existing
services.


Current bidders for London Overground (= NLL, ELLx, WLL, GOBLIN) are
MTR/Laing (Chiltern) and GoVia (Southern). AIUI the Southern franchise
deal allows for transferring certain services to ELLx when it opens,
so this side of things won't be a problem whoever wins.

Network Rail is supposed to be able to resolve timetable conflicts
between different operators, and doesn't do a terrible job: for
example, although the South Central and South Eastern franchises have
been under the same control for much of privatisation (Connex and now
GoVia), the period when GoVia and SRA were running South Central and
South Eastern respectively was not a disaster.


What does seem useful is that whatever (small number of?) Southern
paths/services are effectively transferred to ELL, the displaced rolling
stock will remain available for strengthening other services...

Paul


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Old March 14th 07, 07:45 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default A stock after closure of ELL


Paul Scott wrote:

"John B" wrote in message
oups.com...


Not sure which is happening here. One suggestion is to re-instate four-
tracking between Camden and Dalston, which would be sensible, and then
to dedicate one pair of tracks between Highbury and Dalston
exclusively to the ELL with the other shared between NLL and freight,
which would be barking mad, given that ELL and NLL trains will run at
the same speed in the same direction making the same stops and freight
won't. But if this did happen then you'd expect the NLL tracks to be
OHLE and the ELL tracks to be DC.


I'm just searching for evidence that the ELL will be third rail but without
success so far - however the 4 car rolling stock for ELL is certainly
announced by TfL as 'single voltage' and unless they are going to put up new
OHLE all the way to Crystal Palace and West Croydon, that will have to be
DC...

Paul S




I shall quite from the ELLP "Rolling Stock Prequalification Briefing
Document", dated June 2005...

-----
3.2.16 - The Units must be capable of operation on the national rail
third rail
electrification system. An ability to be readily converted to 25 kV AC
overhead
operation is desirable.
-----
source: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/downloads..._1600940_4.pdf


So there is proof that the East London Railway (as the Extended East
London Line is now being called by TfL) from Dalston Junction
southwards will be third rail.



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