On 15 Mar, 19:14, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily
basis.

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

--
Edward Cowling London UK


A splendid little snippet there of life on the NLL, where gong from A
to B is always a journey!

Off-peak the NLL is busy, but from my experience at peak times it is
perhaps a little harder to take it all lightly - that said, it can get
so packed laughing at the absurdity is perhaps the best remedy. I've
several friends on the line who would use it for their daily commutes
but for the fact it is so packed, so they find other ways to get to
work and back.

I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I've seen your comments regarding buses before and I do quite disagree
with you, but I don't want to get this thread sidetracked (I'll leave
it for another time). But two quick points on that...

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

(2) railways are so much more expensive than buses - diverting funding
away from the buses would only make a minor impact

TfL is to take control of the NLL (and other lines) in November - new
trains are on order for delivery in 2009, though they are only three
car too but should hopefully use the space a bit better. Upgrading
some of the stations to take longer trains is however a big job and
one that will need funds from central government - TfL could not do it
off it's own back.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

In message om, Mizter
T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus despite it
being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an accident
waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and enlarging
the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of transport
improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even God hasn't seen
before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them !


I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message om,
Mizter T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the
strain whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car
driver clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus
despite it being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an
accident waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers
on journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of
the strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I
think TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before
they start making demands for more money from the government - I'm
sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are
aware of the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as
we speak.
Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

New trains ordered August 2006. Also see:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/projec...ceImprovements

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=886

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work off
to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just aren't
catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they aren't
prepared for it.

Mind you aren't the Venezuelans taking pity on poor old third world
London and helping out with a few bob ? :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message ,
Richard J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on
them !

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't
the solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of
work off to the odd interview,

Ah, yes, the mythical scenario where the unemployed person goes to only
one interview and never makes any other journeys by bus. I don't believe
it.

granny on a special trip

Between 04:30 and 09:00? (It's free with her Freedom Pass at other
times!)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work off
to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just aren't
catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they aren't
prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ? Are you aware where you
buy it ? How about New York, or maybe Moscow ?

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at
Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ? Are you aware where you
buy it ? How about New York, or maybe Moscow ?

See my sig. I live in New York. (I visited London the past two summers.)

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

It's always a good idea to do a bit of research before traveling.

Still, for those who haven't done research, Oyster is advertised all
over the place, and the ads make it quite clear that Oyster fares are
cheaper than cash fares.

Perhaps the solution is to stop offering individual tickets entirely. I
wouldn't be surprised if that's the ultimate plan. New York gave up its
traditional tokens in 2002 or 2003.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

You like to stand in line to buy a ticket each time you travel?

You like to have to pay extension fares in advance, once per trip?

You don't see the value in daily capping?

You don't see the vastly reduced costs in cash collection?

Oyster may not be perfect but it's a lot better than what you'll find in
most cities.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:06:34 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ?

Please note these responses are from memory and I have not checked
websites.

Mobilis is the day ticket. Carnet is for more occasional users. They
have not yet implemented a PAYG system but seasons are on Smartcard. If
you want to be ripped off you can buy a Paris Visite - just like the way
we used to rip off tourists with Visitor Travelcards. I don't recall
people howling about how unfair that was and how discriminatory it was
given the accusations placed against Oyster.

Are you aware where you
buy it ?

Every SNCF and RATP station in Paris system will sell a Mobilis, every
RATP station will sell a Carnet and you can buy Paris Visite at Waterloo
Eurostar if you want. You used to be able to buy on the train but I
think that's been stopped now.

How about New York,

Metrocard - either in a PAYG type format but with an effective %
discount or unlimited rides over a fixed time period. All Subway
stations with a manned ticket booth sell them as a minimum. There may be
other outlets but it's been years since I've been to NYC. until the
yanks stop treating all visitors as potential criminals and terrorists
it will be a long time before I visit again despite the fact I love the
city.

or maybe Moscow ?

Never been and never checked. From memory there used to be tokens in
use but I understand a smartcard system has been installed on the Moscow
Metro. Representatives came across to see London's early smartcard
trials at Harrow and were very impressed.

Singapore is the EZ Pass and I have one in my wallet.

Hong Kong is Octopus and I held one of those cards for years and years
until the card regrettably failed on my penultimate journey on my last
visit there.

None of this is remotely difficult to deal with or understand. Just
about every guide book I have ever bought has a decent section on local
public transport and tickets and my Rough Guide to London (2003 edition
so before Oyster) has a good, clear explanation of ticketing options
available then. I imagine it deals with Oyster in the same way in the
latest edition.

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

As Mr Jelf will vouch a great many tourists are so terrified by the mere
thought of going anywhere by public transport that they never travel by
tube or by bus. Personally I think they are missing out hugely but
obviously you are routinely raped, attacked and assaulted every time you
go within ½ a mile of a bus stop or tube platform ;-)

As for the rest many people are in possession of brains and do suitable
research in advance of arrival - as I do when I visit somewhere else.
This group provides a decent amount of informal advice on exactly this
subject.

TfL are taking additional steps to improve the availability of Oyster
based travel to visitors and I'm sure it will be just as good as it was
when the old network of agents were tasked with flogging overpriced
Visitor Travelcards.

Usually my first purchase on arrival is a ride at will ticket that gives
me freedom and flexibility to go as I please. I have never encountered
a problem with doing this anywhere in the world.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

Which is simply not going to happen. There will be no return to the old
system although I imagine differentials may moderate once Oyster is
available on all modes across all of London and take up rates on Oyster
are very high.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

The entire point of the tourism industry is to get people to spend as
much of their money here as possible - it isn't supposed to be a
benevolent charity or even a value proposition. Tourists should pay as
much for travel as the market can sustain, at least as far as it won't
dissuade them from visiting as many high-cost venues as possible.

As the film "Mafia!" said in regard to Vegas tourists; "The smart ones
just send us the money and save on plane fare".

ESB