Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Saturday I traveled from Wood Green to Notting Hill and then later
returned from Ladbroke Grove to Wood Green.

I was charged £1.50 each way. Can I ask if this is correct seeing as I
have a zone 2-3 tavelcard?

Many thanks,

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Dave wrote:
On Saturday I traveled from Wood Green to Notting Hill and then later
returned from Ladbroke Grove to Wood Green.

I was charged £1.50 each way. Can I ask if this is correct seeing as I
have a zone 2-3 tavelcard?

Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.

Had you travelled by bus all the way (or at least from somewhere in Zone
2), and not used the Tube in Zone 1, then you wouldn't have been charged
any extra.

HTH,

Barry

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Barry Salter wrote:

Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.

Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway? And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

(to work out zones you need to know the nominal single fares, which I
don't think are online any more)

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway? And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?

As I understand it, each pair of stations is assigned a particular
fare, regardless of route taken. If you touch the reader at Ealing
Broadway you'd probably just be charged for a new journey. Similarly,
there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
doesn't increase the fare).

U

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway?

No.

And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?

No. Though if you wanted, you could leave through the barriers at
Ealing Broadway and re-enter, making it two journeys instead of one.
This would prevent you being charged an excess fare if you had a Z2-6
Travelcard season on your Oyster.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:19 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:

Barry Salter wrote:

Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.

Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

1-6, which is logical, since NHG-EB-AT-H123 is an illogical route. I'd
only try that one with a Z2-6 travelcard.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr 2007 09:47:08 -0700, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

(to work out zones you need to know the nominal single fares, which I
don't think are online any more)

I could only find the PDF of the leaflet:
http://tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1071.aspx

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:19 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:

Barry Salter wrote:

Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.
Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

1-6, which is logical, since NHG-EB-AT-H123 is an illogical route. I'd
only try that one with a Z2-6 travelcard.

It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

And what if you /do/ have a Z2-6 Travelcard?

How about Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town, where it's two transfers in
either case?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

asdf wrote:

No. Though if you wanted, you could leave through the barriers at
Ealing Broadway and re-enter, making it two journeys instead of one.
This would prevent you being charged an excess fare if you had a Z2-6
Travelcard season on your Oyster.

Oddly enough, even with just PAYG, if you did this off-peak, it would
neither cost you nor save you anything; during peak hours, it would
actually save you £0.70, despite making it two journeys instead of one!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Mr Thant wrote:
Similarly,
there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
doesn't increase the fare).

Very interesting. Examples?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:
It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

U

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

U

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Apr 30, 9:04 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:

It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2..00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

U



The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere? Would he/she be
instructed to care?

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal? What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:
It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

But in this particular case (NHG to Acton Town moreso than NHG to
Heathrow), I would argue that the Ealing Broadway routing is the more
logical one, given the fare differential. The time differential is minimal.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr 2007 09:47:08 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

David

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:42:04 +0100, David Walters wrote:

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

I'd agree. The only reason I can think of is so that holders of Z23
Travelcards on Oyster don't get charged a £1.50 excess if they travel
via the NLL to Stratford.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there). But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)

Probably the same situation, although this time you should have no
problem exiting at the same station you started your journey.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 30 Apr 2007 13:43:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere?

He/she would see that you had touched in at Canary Wharf.

Would he/she be instructed to care?

An interesting question...

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?
I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a
Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

(An obvious example of fraud would be using an Oyster-based Travelcard
and not touching out at a station outside your zones where the gates are
open or where there are no gates at all. But if you simply turn around
and return to your zones without exiting the station, it's not so clear
to me.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On May 3, 2:08 pm, asdf wrote:
On 30 Apr 2007 13:43:58 -0700, MIG wrote:





The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere?

He/she would see that you had touched in at Canary Wharf.

Would he/she be instructed to care?

An interesting question...

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one



Hmm, which raises another question. Would it be any different from
getting out and doing stuff at Island Gardens and then continuing to
Deptford Bridge (ie it looks like one journey in the same direction)?

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

In message . com, Paul
Weaver writes
On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

I haven't seen any official documentation that says that it is PAYG
(glad to be corrected, etc). the NLL TfL concession is meant to be from
Day 1 and Silverlink is working with TfL towwards that. Whether it they
manage to meet that target is a different issue.

The most recent announcement I found was this:
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...e.aspx?id=1209

But the NLL won't be part of Silverlink Trains come November 2007.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

Tough luck, I suppose. You'd have to ask the gateline staff to let you
back out, then phone the Oyster helpline and see if they'll remove the
£4 charge.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

I don't think I can give an objective answer to that question. My
point was that if, *in the opinion of the particular ticket inspector*
at that particular time, you are committing fraud (by making a "Z1-6
journey" but only paying for a Z6 one), that's enough to get you your
Oyster confiscated, along with all your PAYG credit.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 3 May 2007 12:31:14 -0700, MIG wrote:

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one

Hmm, which raises another question. Would it be any different from
getting out and doing stuff at Island Gardens and then continuing to
Deptford Bridge (ie it looks like one journey in the same direction)?

If the inspector on the second train sees you boarding at Island
Gardens, then possibly not...

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Paul Weaver wrote:
On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On May 4, 3:15 pm, asdf wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

That's for PAYG only, isn't it? i.e. if you have a valid Travelcard
the "defined via Z1" rule doesn't apply.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On 1 May, 03:33, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Most of the NLL still isn't on PAYG, and the only way to this journey
on routes that are is via Z1.

U

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Fri, 04 May 2007 15:15:02 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

1. All LU and zonally priced.
2. Direct via NLL and priced by the TOC.
3. Through LU and NR journey via Z1 terminals that would be a
summated fare.

None of these fares were interavailable and to use a ticket for any
option on the non valid routes would result in a Penalty Fare. The issue
is about detecting the use of such tickets on invalid routes.

There is no way of knowing which route someone took between those two
points unless they opted to travel via Waterloo or Vauxhall and caught
SWT on to Richmond.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Big programs are a bug."
-- Geoff Collyer

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Sat, 05 May 2007 02:47:09 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?

Yes, that was basically the point of the story. A TfL spokesperson is
quoted as saying that you can claim a refund of the £8 via the Oyster
helpline, or online.

He also says that in the case of major network disruptions, money is
automatically refunded. How does that work? Presumably it means that
the station staff at the affected station change a setting on the
gates so that the charge is never made in the first place, rather than
it actually being subsequently refunded (which would require the user
to specify a station to collect it).

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On May 5, 3:54 am, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2007 02:47:09 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:
Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?

Yes, that was basically the point of the story. A TfL spokesperson is
quoted as saying that you can claim a refund of the £8 via the Oyster
helpline, or online.

He also says that in the case of major network disruptions, money is
automatically refunded. How does that work? Presumably it means that
the station staff at the affected station change a setting on the
gates so that the charge is never made in the first place, rather than
it actually being subsequently refunded (which would require the user
to specify a station to collect it).



I found that you can't claim a refund without registering with your
full name and address. In other words, if you've been caught in such
a situation, you have to choose between being ripped off for £8 and
having your movements tracked thereafter. Not good news if you prefer
not to register for the sake of privacy.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

MIG wrote
[...]
I found that you can't claim a refund without registering with your
full name and address. In other words, if you've been caught in such
a situation, you have to choose between being ripped off for £8 and
having your movements tracked thereafter. Not good news if you prefer
not to register for the sake of privacy.

No, not "thereafter" since you can immediately turn in your card,
collect the deposit and get a new unregistered one.

Only your prior movements will thereafter be associated with you on Big
Brother Ken's database.

--
Mike D

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

asdf wrote:

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged.

No charge at all? That's very nice!

More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

You may recall that I've expressed strong opposition to the £4 charge.
My opinion has not changed!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.

I didn't realize that.

Does that mean that, if I'm using an Oyster-based Travelcard, I won't be
charged extra as long as the entry and exit points are in my card's
valid zones? Or does the system recognize when there is no possible way
to get from entry to exit without passing through Z1 and charge extra
accordingly?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Wed, 09 May 2007 15:01:56 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

I think you're misunderstanding - we're talking about the current
situation (i.e. with PAYG *not* being valid on the NLL).

However, I'm not convinced that the system is really capable of
assuming a passenger's journey passed through different zones based on
whether they have a Travelcard season or not. According to the TfL
Farefinder, a PAYG single from Willesden Junction to Gunnersbury is
£1.00 at any time (i.e. a Z23 or Z34 journey), even though there's no
way to complete this journey by any routes on which PAYG is valid
without going via Z1.

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.

I didn't realize that.

Does that mean that, if I'm using an Oyster-based Travelcard, I won't be
charged extra as long as the entry and exit points are in my card's
valid zones? Or does the system recognize when there is no possible way
to get from entry to exit without passing through Z1 and charge extra
accordingly?

The latter. For example, if you have a Z45 Travelcard on your Oyster
and travel from High Barnet (Z5) to Morden (Z4), you would be charged
the Z123 fare.

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 15:01:56 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

I think you're misunderstanding

Could be! It's happened before.

- we're talking about the current
situation (i.e. with PAYG *not* being valid on the NLL).

But what will happen when PAYG becomes valid? Will Travelcard users
have to pay for Z1? Or will the rules be relaxed for everyone? Or will
Travelcard and PAYG users be held to different standards?

What happens currently on a Travelcard trip between Notting Hill Gate
and Acton Town? Upthread we determined that a PAYG trip is charged the
via-Z1 fare. But is a Z2-6 Travelcard valid for the same trip with no
extension charge?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.
 

On Thu, 10 May 2007 10:26:39 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

What happens currently on a Travelcard trip between Notting Hill Gate
and Acton Town? Upthread we determined that a PAYG trip is charged the
via-Z1 fare. But is a Z2-6 Travelcard valid for the same trip with no
extension charge?

I reckon the answer is no - that the system always treats it as a Z123
journey, regardless of whether or not you have a Travelcard on your
Oyster (and what zones it's valid in). But we won't really know unless
someone actually tries it.