On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
Isn't it simpler than that?
1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would
have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

To the best of my knowledge, that is exactly how the trains would have
been left.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Not on the Northern Line, as on this line the trains have in-cab
monitors. AFAIK these *will* function in the wrong direction,
certainly in some locations.


I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent -
though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should
have known from line knowledge. However, I think it is more likely the
driver simply became disorientated, or confused for some other reason.
It's probably an easier mistake to make than you would think.

BRB Class 465.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

tom

--
Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, and then perhaps we will learn the
truth. -- Friedrich Kekule

On 15 Jun, 13:02, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

He should know that edgware and barnet are in the same direction
however. No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused a
major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

B2003

Boltar wrote:

No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused a
major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

Put him on the W&C!

On Jun 15, 12:52 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would
have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

I'd imagine once a cab is locked the train is in a non-directional
state.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Not on the Northern which has in-cab CCTV monitors, and would
presumably have been working even at the wrong end. And since the
cameras can point either direction, it wouldn't have been obvious the
image was the wrong way round.

We also don't know how much time elapsed between getting out of his
train and getting in the other one. He could conceivably have been
dragged upstairs to talk to the station manager, or been being hassled
by all the passengers on the platform, or many other things that made
him lose his bearings.

U

In ,
John Rowland typed:
Boltar wrote:

No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused
a major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

Put him on the W&C!

Perhaps he had just been to the WC and that was what made him forget
what he was supposed to be doing!





--
Bob

In message . com, at
12:19:03 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465
remarked:
I think it is more likely the driver simply became disorientated, or
confused for some other reason. It's probably an easier mistake to make
than you would think.

Yes, I am prepared to believe that, if as you say there's no cctv/mirror
furniture on the platforms.
--
Roland Perry

On 15 Jun, 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
12:19:03 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465
remarked:

I think it is more likely the driver simply became disorientated, or
confused for some other reason. It's probably an easier mistake to make
than you would think.

Yes, I am prepared to believe that, if as you say there's no cctv/mirror
furniture on the platforms.

Theres a signal at one end of the platform but not the other. Which
way should the train go? Hmm , tricky one....

B2003

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:02:49 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:25:02 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not
talking a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

However he would have known the platforms from the cab.

Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

That's not what I meant.

He would have seen all the platforms from the cab ever since he had
been driving on the Northern Line. Even if he did not know the details
the same way a passenger would, by the time he got into the wrong cab
he should have known something was wrong because it didn't look like
what he expected to see.

There have been suggestions it could have been a shunting move, which
doesn't make sense unless both trains were being reversed, which is
possible if the previous blocks on each route to the rear were clear.
But they weren't.

And in any case, shouldn't this require some kind of wrong line order?
The signalling certainly doesn't permit this.

It's my guess he was disoriented and confused. Especially if the
subway took him to that end of the train. But he should have realised
when he didn't see what he would have expected.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for
the correct routes.

But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew
and passengers between each train.

After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.