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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
My son bought a cheap day return ticket yesterday from Epsom to
Potter's Bar. He bought it from the Southern machine at Epsom station. The outward journey (Epsom-Vauxhall-Finsbury Pk-Potter's Bar) was uneventful, but on the way back, the barrier at Vauxhall Underground would not let him out. He showed his ticket to the attendant, who said it was not valid for the tube journey -- though she let him out without asking him to pay. Looking at the NRES website, a CDR Epsom - Potter's Bar with a YP railcard is 9.50, which is what he was charged. The website is silent, so far as I can see, on the subject of whether that includes the tube journey, though the attendant was correct in that his ticket did not have the '+' symbol indicating that the tube is included. I was under the impression that all cross-London tickets include the tube segment, at least by default. Am I wrong? Or is the machine just programmed wrongly? I am reasonably sure that the same machine recently issued an Epsom - Cambridge return which included the tube, and I have never seen it offer a 'tube or no tube' option. There are no Underground barriers at Finsbury Park (my son says), but his ticket did let him into the Underground at Vauxhall on the outward journey. He mentioned this to the attendant who said yes, it will let you in but not out -- which would seem to be strange advice, were it not for the fact that it appears to be true. Peter CS |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:40 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
What route would they expect you to use if not the one your some did use? You could avoid using the Tube by taking FCC from Sutton to King's Cross Thameslink. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , lid (asdf) wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:40 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote: What route would they expect you to use if not the one your some did use? You could avoid using the Tube by taking FCC from Sutton to King's Cross Thameslink. Yes. I expect this fare goes back to the days when Thameslink services ran to Epsom. The FCC CDR fare is not the one that the OP's son paid. That is even cheaper than the 9.50 that was paid. -- Bob |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
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When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 9 Jul, 18:52, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
This is rather strange. Qjump shows two CDR fares CHEAP DAY RETURN ANY PERMITTED 8.00 GBP (5.30 with YP railcard) CHEAP DAY RETURN ANY PERMITTED 14.40 GBP (9.50 with YP railcard) However it won't offer any trains for the 8.00 fare. Looking on the Avantix program it only shows one fare of 8.00 Route +ANY PERMITTED. Can someone check the latest NFM and see what the correct fare for this journey is supposed to be? Peter Smyth It is possible to complete that journey using NR - Epsom Clapham Junction London Bridge Thameslink to Kings Cross Potters Bar. So I suppose one was +Tube and the other wasn't. Finsbury Park does not have tube barriers, so I suppose that could have something to do with it. There's a similar post of a person who went from Paddington(?) to Clapham Junction without the + using tube one way, but wouldn't allow him through the barriers the other way. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 9 Jul, 23:25, JL wrote:
It is possible to complete that journey using NR - Epsom Clapham Junction London Bridge Thameslink to Kings Cross Potters Bar. So I suppose one was +Tube and the other wasn't. Finsbury Park does not have tube barriers, so I suppose that could have something to do with it. There's a similar post of a person who went from Paddington(?) to Clapham Junction without the + using tube one way, but wouldn't allow him through the barriers the other way. I suspect the non-tube route is actually EpsomCLJWillesden JctHighbury&IsFinsbury ParkPotters Bar. Or would that be 'not London'? There is a London Terminals to Brentford fare, route Any P. There is also a fare route 'Hackney Wick' Work that one out! Ken |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 10 Jul, 00:14, Ken wrote:
There is a London Terminals to Brentford fare, route Any P. There is also a fare route 'Hackney Wick' Work that one out! Ken Looks like NRE are anticipating the arrival of the ELL extension a little early |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Ken wrote:
On 9 Jul, 23:25, JL wrote: It is possible to complete that journey using NR - Epsom Clapham Junction London Bridge Thameslink to Kings Cross Potters Bar. So I suppose one was +Tube and the other wasn't. I suspect the non-tube route is actually EpsomCLJWillesden JctHighbury&IsFinsbury ParkPotters Bar. Or would that be 'not London'? There is also a fare route 'Hackney Wick' Work that one out! .... Woolwich Ferry and some fond reminiscences about the NLL? tom -- Plus, you gotta understand I can now type far, far faster than I can think. This is not boasting - its admitting a personal tragedy. -- D |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
I've posted this before, but if you buy a ticket at Paddington to
Clapham Junction, it gets printed as a "London Terminals" to Clapham Junction, price 2.10 (1.40 with a goldcard), and it works in the tube barriers at Paddington and Waterloo. The screen specifically states "London Paddington to Clapham Junction", route "any permitted", for the avoidance of any doubt. No maltese cross though. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 9 Jul, 13:59, wrote:
My son bought a cheap day return ticket yesterday from Epsom to Potter's Bar. He bought it from the Southern machine at Epsom station. The outward journey (Epsom-Vauxhall-Finsbury Pk-Potter's Bar) was uneventful, but on the way back, the barrier at Vauxhall Underground would not let him out. He showed his ticket to the attendant, who said it was not valid for the tube journey -- though she let him out without asking him to pay. Have just found this at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ stations_destinations/connections/crossing_london.html: "Rail tickets for journeys routed via London are valid for transfer by Underground or Thameslink between London terminals at no additional cost. For example, a Brighton to Leeds ticket is valid on London Underground between Victoria and Kings Cross." I don't think his ticket actually said 'via London', but I can't see how else one could go (other than via Guildford, Reading, Coventry, Leicester and Peterborough, which is undoubtedly not a permitted route). Granted he could have used the (much slower) Thameslink route, but then the example they give - Brighton to Leeds - could do so too, and perhaps even more plausibly so. The ticket seems therefore to have been printed and coded contrary to what it says on the website. Whether it was also priced wrongly is also an interesting question. A CDR from Ewell East to Hadley Wood - just one station inwards from each endpoint, but both in zone 6 - is 6.70 (without railcard) as opposed to 14.40 for Epsom to Potter's Bar (both taken from the NR website). I also note the curious statement that "Please be aware, you may need to buy separate tickets for this journey, as a through ticket may not be available." All in all, a bit of a mess. PeterCS |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
stan5001 writes:
The screen specifically states "London Paddington to Clapham Junction", route "any permitted", for the avoidance of any doubt. No maltese cross though. The only way of doing that by NR with no tube, no doubling back and no inter-station walk is via GWML to Reading and then SWT to Clapham Jn. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in
Reading with that ticket! |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:44:05 +0100, stan5001 wrote:
I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in Reading with that ticket! Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading? -- Fig |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Fig wrote:
Sounds like a challenge. It's probably not valid, because the ticket actually has "London Terminals" printed on it, not Paddington. Acton Main Line (first station after Paddington) to Clapham Junction via Reading is probably legit, though NRE is having none of it. Any Barriers at Reading? Yes. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Fig wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:44:05 +0100, stan5001 wrote: I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in Reading with that ticket! Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading? Yes. Thousands of 'em. CORE [1] also thinks this (Paddington to Reading via Slough, Reading to Clapham Junction via Staines) is the shortest route, and puts it at 75:27 miles. tom [1] http://www.davros.org/rail/routeing-guide.html -- Pave the world |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:51:01 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in Reading with that ticket! Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading? Yes. Thousands of 'em. CORE [1] also thinks this (Paddington to Reading via Slough, Reading to Clapham Junction via Staines) is the shortest route, and puts it at 75:27 miles. Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London transfers as part of the shortest route. Besides, even then, it's not the shortest route from London Terminals to Clapham Junction (which is what's actually printed on the ticket). |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
asdf wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:51:01 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in Reading with that ticket! Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading? Yes. Thousands of 'em. CORE [1] also thinks this (Paddington to Reading via Slough, Reading to Clapham Junction via Staines) is the shortest route, and puts it at 75:27 miles. Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London transfers as part of the shortest route. Besides, even then, it's not the shortest route from London Terminals to Clapham Junction (which is what's actually printed on the ticket). Wasn't the strange thing about the ticket in question that the screen displayed "London Paddington" to "Clapham Junction" to the price of 2.10 but when he got the printed ticket in his hand it was "London Terminals" to "Clapham Junction"? I was thinking about this: -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 10 Jul, 14:33, Graham Murray wrote:
stan5001 writes: The screen specifically states "London Paddington to Clapham Junction", route "any permitted", for the avoidance of any doubt. No maltese cross though. The only way of doing that by NR with no tube, no doubling back and no inter-station walk is via GWML to Reading and then SWT to Clapham Jn. That's not the only way! What about changing at Exeter St. Davids? (or Bristol TM, or Bristol TM and Weymouth, or even Reading and Basingstoke...??) Steve Adams |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 10 Jul, 20:45, asdf wrote:
Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London transfers as part of the shortest route. Has it been established whether you should or not? I emailed my Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction scenario to NRE, and they said getting the tube is shortest, but there's no instructions in the routeing guide on which services should be considered when calculating the shortest route. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 04:18:39 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:
Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London transfers as part of the shortest route. Has it been established whether you should or not? No, hence the options on CORE. I emailed my Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction scenario to NRE, and they said getting the tube is shortest, but there's no instructions in the routeing guide on which services should be considered when calculating the shortest route. The instructions in the RG do tell you to use the distances in the National Rail Timetable. There are 3 possible interpretations: -Only National Rail services should be considered. -Cross-London transfers should be included, but only the distance on National Rail counts (i.e. the Tube part of the journey is considered to have a distance of 0). -Cross-London transfers should be included, and you should use an external source to find the length of the Tube part. CORE gives you a choice between the first two of these. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Jul 11, 2:12 pm, asdf wrote:
-Cross-London transfers should be included, but only the distance on National Rail counts (i.e. the Tube part of the journey is considered to have a distance of 0). National Rail Enquiries have replied again, endorsing the option above. I also asked about another route where an obvious line was missing from one of the Routeing Guide's maps: "Not every line in the country is shown in the Routeing Guide, as there are to many and it would make it confusing to use. So accordingly only the normal main line routes are shown, and local easement given to Train Operating Companies routes and services are not always shown." (sic) It just gets worse. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:06:30 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:
I also asked about another route where an obvious line was missing from one of the Routeing Guide's maps: Which line and map? |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Jul 11, 4:53 pm, asdf wrote:
Which line and map? Manchester to Wigan via Atherton (ie not via Bolton) on map NW, which is the only map valid Manchester to Preston. It's actually shorter than via Bolton and Wigan, which is on the map, but since it's not the shortest route overall to Preston, I don't believe it's allowed. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On 10 Jul, 23:28, Steve wrote:
That's not the only way! What about changing at Exeter St. Davids? (or Bristol TM, or Bristol TM and Weymouth, or even Reading and Basingstoke...??) There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a ticket to the destination station. The doubling back is a deviation of this rule. It stops people buying a ticket from Birmingham to London via Edinburgh, even if the same track isn't covered twice. STD Single, PAD CLJ = 5.10 STD Single, PAD RDG = 15.60 Therefore going via Reading is not an option, NRE says you're expected to use the tube. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:30:55 -0700, JL wrote:
There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a ticket to the destination station. No, there is not. The doubling back is a deviation of this rule. Doubling-back is nothing to do with the above. The rules are a lot more complicated than you are trying to make out. Have a read of the online Routeing Guide and it will make sense. There is a fares rule, and there is a doubling-back rule, but neither are as you state. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
The rules are a lot more complicated than you are trying to make out.
Have a read of the online Routeing Guide and it will make sense. There is a fares rule, and there is a doubling-back rule, but neither are as you state. I'm sorry, this was a misunderstanding on my part. Let me explain the situation fully: DOUBLING BACK Doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination) is forbidden, but with three exceptions. Doubling back is permitted if 1. an easement allows it 2. it is for the purpose of changing trains inside a routeing point group 3. it occurs on map ZZ or in combination with map ZZ to reach a station the sleeper train does not stop at. THE FARE-CHECK RULE The fare-check rule is that a journey is allowed by an origin or destination routeing point if the fare for the whole journey via that routeing point is not less than the fare from the origin to the destination routeing point and not less than the fare from the origin routeing point to the destination. To explain in more detail, Paddington = London Group Routeing Point Member Clapham Junction = Clapham Junction Routing Point Permitted Routes: LB: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20LB.jpg LK: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20LK.jpg PD: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20PD.jpg SC: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20SC.jpg WX: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20WX.jpg None of these routes utilize Paddington Station, therefore travel from any train leaving Paddington is not permitted. Therefore, the London Underground must be used [1]. However, travel from Charing Cross, Waterloo, Victoria, Canon Street, London Bridge or Any Thameslink is permitted. As Reading is not a permitted routeing point, the Fare- Check rule does not come into play. [1] "Sometimes the Fares Manual will show an “Any permitted” fare but without the via London, Maltese cross * symbol. Reference to Section C may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted." Which explains why the ticket barriers opened. It doesn't however say why they didn't open on the way back |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
Theres a half hourly service to Sutton from Kx Thameslink via Tulse Hill so
what about Potters Bar-KX-Tlk-Tulse Hill-Mitcham Jct-Sutton-Epsom Connections at Sutton are pretty good. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:51:01 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in Reading with that ticket! Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading? Yes. Thousands of 'em. CORE [1] also thinks this (Paddington to Reading via Slough, Reading to Clapham Junction via Staines) is the shortest route, and puts it at 75:27 miles. Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London transfers as part of the shortest route. Correct, sorry, i should have mentioned that. Besides, even then, it's not the shortest route from London Terminals to Clapham Junction (which is what's actually printed on the ticket). Also true. Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction then! However, as U pointed out (in a post which i have now deleted, which is why i'm not replying to it), NR apparently allow tube transfers as part of a route, with length zero, so the London box should have been ticked, and even from Acton Main Line, you take the tube. I guess they just think of all London Terminals as being one big station! I get the impression it doesn't explicitly lay this out in the guide, though, which is interesting. Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it? tom -- Come on thunder; come on thunder. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL wrote:
The rules are a lot more complicated than you are trying to make out. I'm sorry, this was a misunderstanding on my part. Let me explain the situation fully: DOUBLING BACK Doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination) is forbidden, but with three exceptions. Doubling back is permitted if 1. an easement allows it 2. it is for the purpose of changing trains inside a routeing point group 3. it occurs on map ZZ or in combination with map ZZ to reach a station the sleeper train does not stop at. THE FARE-CHECK RULE The fare-check rule is that a journey is allowed by an origin or destination routeing point if the fare for the whole journey via that routeing point is not less than the fare from the origin to the destination routeing point and not less than the fare from the origin routeing point to the destination. Unless, presumably, the destination routeing point is in knip? tom -- Come on thunder; come on thunder. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Jul 12, 11:50 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
Also true. Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction then! I have a better one - Hayes & Harlington to Feltham via Reading. London-Reading semi-fasts stop at both, so it's a useful route to Reading if you have an all zones Travelcard and aren't in a hurry. Routeing points Slough and Staines pass the fares rule, and Reading is a mapped route between them (WR+WX), and Any Permitted route tickets are available. Journey Planner doesn't like it, though. Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it? National Rail guy said it's the London Group that implies it. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
In message . com, at
13:30:55 on Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL remarked: There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a ticket to the destination station. So does that mean that a London-Newark ticket is not in fact valid via Nottingham? London-Newark ~52 RG gives CS+MM, ER London-Nottingham ~62 When the only way to Newark on map CS+MM is via Nottingham. -- Roland Perry |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at 13:30:55 on Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL remarked: There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a ticket to the destination station. So does that mean that a London-Newark ticket is not in fact valid via Nottingham? It doesn't, because the rule does not exist as described. -- Michael Hoffman |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
JL writes:
None of these routes utilize Paddington Station, therefore travel from any train leaving Paddington is not permitted. Therefore, the London Underground must be used [1]. However, travel from Charing Cross, Waterloo, Victoria, Canon Street, London Bridge or Any Thameslink is permitted. As Reading is not a permitted routeing point, the Fare- Check rule does not come into play. However, travel from Paddington to Clapham Jn via Reading and either Basingstoke or Staines would be allowed on a Basingstoke (and probably other stations on the SWT main line) to London Stations season, as travel Basingstoke-Reading-Paddington and Basingstoke-Reading-Staines-Clapham Jn are permitted routes. Season tickets allow unlimited travel between intermediate stations on all permitted routes. |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... However, as U pointed out (in a post which i have now deleted, which is why i'm not replying to it), NR apparently allow tube transfers as part of a route, with length zero, so the London box should have been ticked, and even from Acton Main Line, you take the tube. I guess they just think of all London Terminals as being one big station! I get the impression it doesn't explicitly lay this out in the guide, though, which is interesting. Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it? I don't think the NR fares manual supports your view about 'London Terminals' being a hypothetical one big station, though, unless you are actually crossing London. This is how it reads on page A4: "Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are shown in Section B and are valid at the following London Stations subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken, but do NOT include travel between these stations on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or London Buses." [no point copying the list of stations...] That 3rd line 'subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken' seems a bit vague but must imply the routeing guide? The current (May 07) NR London connections map has a couple of new notes on fares within the travelcard areas, since the advent of zonal fares, I won't repeat them, but they are a bit different to last years... Paul |
When do NR tickets include tube travel?
On Jul 15, 12:24 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: I don't think the NR fares manual supports your view about 'London Terminals' being a hypothetical one big station, though, unless you are actually crossing London. His comment was Acton Mainline to Clapham Junction, so when he said "London Terminals" I don't think he meant to invoke the ticket destination. That 3rd line 'subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken' seems a bit vague but must imply the routeing guide? Presumably that's a reference to going to the obvious terminal(s) for your starting point, using either the shortest route rule or the maps. The maps for Clapham Junction to London appear to allow Victoria, Vauxhall and Waterloo direct; then Charing Cross and London Bridge via Waterloo; and Cannon Street, City Thameslink and Blackfriars via Waterloo and LB. Or if we're going all Clive Feather, CJ to LB is permitted via Tulse Hill, or Croydon, or Croydon and Bromley, or Streatham, Epsom and Croydon, and so on. The Journey Planner will accept via Croydon but not Epsom. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ |
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