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Box Junction Penalty
I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine. I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for the signs associated with box junctions? Robin |
Box Junction Penalty
"Robin Smith" wrote in message
m... I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for the signs associated with box junctions? You can try searching for for '1043' or '1044' in http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm |
Box Junction Penalty
I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine. Dude - do what that footballer did recently and send the form back unsigned and then contest the penalty and the points in the magistrates court. Apparently the road traffic act does not require you to sign the form. |
Box Junction Penalty
"Stimpy" wrote in message
... "Robin Cox" wrote in message ... "Stimpy" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.shtml ===== Highway Code rule 150: You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. Cooo... you live and learn :-) I didn't know about the exemption when you want to turn right either. Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it was safe to do so. |
Box Junction Penalty
"mrjolly" wrote in message
... "K" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy" wrote: But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent posting established exactly what the Code does advise... Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that scenario happend to me on Sunday. In this case, oncoming traffic should consider your place taken in the queue already. i.e. The person turning left into the last slot should leave that space for you. Usually traffic is moving slowly when this happens, so its just a matter of hoping that the last person to turn left is aware of this fact. Fat chance with the drivers around my area. What usually happens is that when you (the right-turner) see that the gap on the right is big enough to take your car, you start to accelerate. As you are doing so, the left-turning car nips in ahead of you. This leaves you stranded in the box, not in a nice neat facing-ahead-but-about-to-turn-right position but immediately behind the car that's nipped in ahead of you, blocking the road for any other oncoming traffic :-( [So easy to draw a diagram; so hard to describe in words!] |
Box Junction Penalty
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
... In article m, Martin Underwood writes It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights change :-( Isn't the situation that you describe covered by the "are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right" clause - the implication being that you must not enter the box if anything *else* prevents you completing the turn - for example the fact that traffic on your right is backed-up as far as the box. I think you need a crystal ball. Imagine you are the first of the right- turning cars. The road to the right is clear (at least one space to turn into). But the oncoming traffic prevents you turning. And then an oncoming car turns left, and fills up that space you used to have. Are you suddenly a criminal? The same for the next car back, observing (if indeed the sight-line is unobstructed) that there are spaces for two cars in the road to the right, initially. You've misunderstood what I said. As I see it, there are two situtations: 1. If you're turning right and traffic on the road that you want to take is backed-up as far as the box junction, you do not enter the box junction, even though you are wanting to turn right - because you are not *only* prevented from turning by the oncoming traffic but *also* because your exit from the box junction isn't clear. 2. If the exit on the right is clear but the only reason you can't turn right is because of oncoming traffic, you may enter but must remain in the middle of the road and not go as far as the exit from the box because this would block oncoming traffic. It is usually only practicable for one vehicle to sit in the centre of the road - any cars behind the "lead car" will form a barrier which will block oncoming traffic that wants to turn to its right. In case 1, when your exit becomes clear you enter the box junction and wait in the centre - unless there's no oncoming traffic in which case you complete the turn. In case 2, when there's no more oncoming traffic you complete the turn. In either case, an oncoming, left-turning car may "steal" your space between the time that you start to move and the time when you would complete the turn and leave the box junction. In this case you will be stranded on the box junction, probably just before its exit, blocking oncoming traffic. In all cases, I'm using "oncoming" to mean traffic that's going in the opposite direction to your original direction before turning right. |
Box Junction Penalty
"Richard J." wrote in message ...
Robin Smith wrote: I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine. There are no signs associated with box junctions. Just pay the fine for chrissake. As I said, I do intend to pay the fine (which will double if I do not do so soon), but what with all these loop holes associated with bus lane cameras and speed cameras, I was genuinely interested in knowing whether there were similar loop holes associated with box junctions. Since the penalty notice my awareness of box junctions has increased, and my driving improved, so good will come of this. I am not the type of person to challenge the law when I know I have done wrong. Robin |
Box Junction Penalty
"Robin Smith" wrote in message
m... I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine. I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for the signs associated with box junctions? Three Robins on one thread - it must be Christmas! Can I ask how the offence was detected, by camera or by being stopped by a PC or Parking Attendant, and who is pursuing you for the Penalty Charge, a London Borough or TfL. I don't think box junctions require signs - I can think of many locations where there are no signs, just the road marking. Robin |
Box Junction Penalty
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Box Junction Penalty
Does a box-junction offence carry penalty points or is it like a
parking offence? (Bus-lane offences do not carry penalty points either except I think on contra-flow bus-lanes) |
Box Junction Penalty
"Terry Harper" wrote in message
... "Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message ... In article , Roland Perry writes Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. The wording appears to have changed. It *was* something like "... oncoming traffic going ahead or also turning right". In other words, *one* car can wait on the box to turn right from each direction, but that's all; the second car in each queue must wait to enter the box, just as when going straight ahead. Is this one of those cases where the London habit of turning right involves passing off-side to off-side with the other turning traffic, instead of the system used everywhere else of passing nearside to nearside? The other traffic waiting to turn right may be travelling in the opposite direction. The "approved" method of turning right, as described in the Highway Code and Roadcraft is to pass offside to offside (ie with the drivers' sides next to each other) as this gives each driver a clear view of the oncoming traffic so he can judge when it's safe for him to turn. However it is a classic case of the safer method also being the less efficient because with most junction layouts, each car partially blocks the other's path, so both drivers must move at the same time - or not at all. Where there is sufficent room, it is more efficient for cars to pass nearside to nearside, such that neither car blocks the other's path and each can move independently of the other - but this is only really safe if both cars can pull forward far enough not to block each other's view of the oncoming traffic. Some junctions actually have lane markings and arrows which make it clear that this is what traffic must do. |
Box Junction Penalty
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:20 GMT, "Martin Underwood" wrote: Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it was safe to do so. While many may be doing this just out of stubbornness, it's useful to know that, in Germany, pedestrians legally have the right of way over turning cars at this kind of junction. Indeed, the pedestrian lights turn green when the traffic lights are still green in one direction. I wonder how Germany's "pedestrians have priority" rule arose? I reckon our way of doing things is much better: a green light (when you eventually get it) really does mean "you can go" (either for pedestrians or for vehicles, at different times) rather than "you can *both* go, but pedestrians have priority over vehicles". The junctions that always confuse me are the ones with two sets of lights, one for traffic going straight on and another for traffic turning right. I'm so conditioned to stopping at a red light that I find it very difficult to drive straight ahead through a green light when faced also with the red light for traffic turning right. What woudl be much better is if all the right-turn lights were arrows (ie a red arrow, as well as a green arrow) to make it more clear in the heat of the moment that this light only applies to traffic that's turning right. |
Box Junction Penalty
Peter Crosland wrote:
They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need to be any other for them to take effect. In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Box Junction Penalty
"Stimpy" wrote in message
... "Richard J." wrote in message ... In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.shtml ===== Highway Code rule 150: You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. ===== Robin |
Box Junction Penalty
"Robin Cox" wrote in message ... "Stimpy" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.shtml ===== Highway Code rule 150: You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. Cooo... you live and learn :-) |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:45:24 GMT, "Robin Cox"
wrote: "Robin Smith" wrote in message om... I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine. I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for the signs associated with box junctions? Three Robins on one thread - it must be Christmas! If you wait poplestone will probably turn up and tell you that you it was your fault for speedling in a hatched (no mater which Robin it was). -- This post does not reflect the opinions of all saggy cloth cats be they a bit loose at the seams or not GSX600F - Matilda the (now) two eared teapot, complete with white gaffer tape, though no rectal chainsaw |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:37 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote: In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) |
Box Junction Penalty
"K" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:37 +0100, "Stimpy" wrote: In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent posting established exactly what the Code does advise... |
Box Junction Penalty
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Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:37 +0100, Stimpy
wrote in : "Richard J." wrote in message ... In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. -- Highway Code -- Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. Room 40-1-B12, CERN |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote: But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent posting established exactly what the Code does advise... Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that scenario happend to me on Sunday. |
Box Junction Penalty
"K" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy" wrote: But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent posting established exactly what the Code does advise... Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that scenario happend to me on Sunday. In this case, oncoming traffic should consider your place taken in the queue already. i.e. The person turning left into the last slot should leave that space for you. Usually traffic is moving slowly when this happens, so its just a matter of hoping that the last person to turn left is aware of this fact. Fat chance with the drivers around my area. Regards, Darren |
Box Junction Penalty
"K" wrote in message
... But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) The law makes clear that this is allowed (if you are turning right), even though the highway code does not. |
Box Junction Penalty
In article m, Martin
Underwood writes It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights change :-( Isn't the situation that you describe covered by the "are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right" clause - the implication being that you must not enter the box if anything *else* prevents you completing the turn - for example the fact that traffic on your right is backed-up as far as the box. I think you need a crystal ball. Imagine you are the first of the right- turning cars. The road to the right is clear (at least one space to turn into). But the oncoming traffic prevents you turning. And then an oncoming car turns left, and fills up that space you used to have. Are you suddenly a criminal? The same for the next car back, observing (if indeed the sight-line is unobstructed) that there are spaces for two cars in the road to the right, initially. -- "It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99. |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:27:58 -0400, Roland Perry
wrote: In article , Dr Ivan D. Reid writes Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into the box Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. -- Highway Code It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights change :-( Then you are stopped from doing so by traffic on the right of you blocking your turning path - and they shouldn't be waiting in a box junction. --Nick. -- http://www.blackstar.co.uk/scp/id/what - Want videos? Fax: +44 (0) 7974 984182 - icq: 9235201 - Hayn on dal |
Box Junction Penalty
In article , Nick
writes It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights change :-( Then you are stopped from doing so by traffic on the right of you blocking your turning path - and they shouldn't be waiting in a box junction. Yes, but the road to the right might have been clear when you first entered the box. However, I suppose if we look closely, the offence is *entering* a box junction at the worn time. Not being sat in a legally entered box junction feeling like a prat and blocking the traffic... -- "It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99. |
Box Junction Penalty
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Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:51:15 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote: They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need to be any other for them to take effect. STOP signs have to be authorised by the Department for Transport. Box junctions do not. Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:30:11 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote: In the sense that it is a road sign. Parking restrictions and bus lanes require statutory notices to be published to allow them to be enforced. Rather more specifically, parking controls and bus lanes require a Traffic Management Order (under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended) to be made. Box junctions do not. I'm sure our tame barrister on uk.transport.london can fill this bit in. Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:05:34 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote: What usually happens is that when you (the right-turner) see that the gap on the right is big enough to take your car, you start to accelerate. As you are doing so, the left-turning car nips in ahead of you. This leaves you stranded in the box, not in a nice neat facing-ahead-but-about-to-turn-right position but immediately behind the car that's nipped in ahead of you, blocking the road for any other oncoming traffic :-( [So easy to draw a diagram; so hard to describe in words!] The offence is entering the box, not being in it. Your exit was presumably clear when you entered the box so you should be OK (.....provided the PC believes you). -- Peter Lawrence |
Box Junction Penalty
Peter Crosland wrote:
They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need to be any other for them to take effect. Richard J replied: In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign? You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic. "Peter Crosland" then wrote: In the sense that it is a road sign. Parking restrictions and bus lanes require statutory notices to be published to allow them to be enforced. Many road-signs (as well as markings) DO require statutory notices (Traffic Orders) to make them enforceable, for example a 'no right turn' sign does. So does a 'no entry' sign. But a yellow box doesn't. |
Box Junction Penalty
In message , Robin
Smith writes As I said, I do intend to pay the fine (which will double if I do not do so soon), but what with all these loop holes associated with bus lane cameras and speed cameras, I was genuinely interested in knowing whether there were similar loop holes associated with box junctions. Since the penalty notice my awareness of box junctions has increased, and my driving improved, so good will come of this. I am not the type of person to challenge the law when I know I have done wrong. And next time you can't get through a junction because some self-centred idiot who doesn't give a **** about anyone else apart from him (or her) self and getting where they want to go is blocking the junction. You just keep your fingers crossed and pray to God that the idiot blocking all the traffic manages to find a loop-hole and get out of paying that fine. -- CJG |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:20 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote: Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it was safe to do so. While many may be doing this just out of stubbornness, it's useful to know that, in Germany, pedestrians legally have the right of way over turning cars at this kind of junction. Indeed, the pedestrian lights turn green when the traffic lights are still green in one direction. It took some getting used to when travelling back home from Germany by train via London - after being beeped a few times in London I remembered the UK's different traffic laws! Neil |
Box Junction Penalty
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
... In article , Roland Perry writes Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. The wording appears to have changed. It *was* something like "... oncoming traffic going ahead or also turning right". In other words, *one* car can wait on the box to turn right from each direction, but that's all; the second car in each queue must wait to enter the box, just as when going straight ahead. Is this one of those cases where the London habit of turning right involves passing off-side to off-side with the other turning traffic, instead of the system used everywhere else of passing nearside to nearside? The other traffic waiting to turn right may be travelling in the opposite direction. -- Terry Harper http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Box Junction Penalty
Neil Williams wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:20 GMT, "Martin Underwood" wrote: Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it was safe to do so. While many may be doing this just out of stubbornness, it's useful to know that, in Germany, pedestrians legally have the right of way over turning cars at this kind of junction. Indeed, the pedestrian lights turn green when the traffic lights are still green in one direction. It's the same in France. It saves having a separate pedestrian phase on the lights, thus improving the traffic capacity of the junction but without reducing pedestrian facilities. A bit too radical for the UK safety mafia though. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Box Junction Penalty
Roland Perry wrote in message .. .
Yes, but the road to the right might have been clear when you first entered the box. However, I suppose if we look closely, the offence is *entering* a box junction at the worn time. Not being sat in a legally entered box junction feeling like a prat and blocking the traffic... It's interesting to observe all the discussion about the confusion over what is allowed when turning right in a box junction. Alas, the box junction in question on the North Circular where I received the penalty had no right turn junction (only traffic merging from the left, and crossing from the right) - so there is no excuse here. Perhaps they do not have box junction cameras as such "right enabled" box junctions? Robin |
Box Junction Penalty
In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. -- Highway Code I'm amazed by those who didn't know this, since it came up as one of the questions the first time I passed the driving test well over 20 years ago. It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually stop. The wording appears to have changed. It *was* something like "... oncoming traffic going ahead or also turning right". In other words, *one* car can wait on the box to turn right from each direction, but that's all; the second car in each queue must wait to enter the box, just as when going straight ahead. Yes, and some people are assuming that the junction is a cross roads. It might just as well be a right turn only (from the right turning vehicle's point of view) which means that being the second vehicle to enter the box waiting to turn right doesn't actually obstruct anyone. -- "It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99. |
Box Junction Penalty
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:38:53 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote: The "approved" method of turning right, as described in the Highway Code and Roadcraft is to pass offside to offside (ie with the drivers' sides next to each other) as this gives each driver a clear view of the oncoming traffic so he can judge when it's safe for him to turn. It also means that no car is turning in front of oncoming traffic. So if the oncoming car is in fact intending to go straight ahead rather than turn right (perhaps an indicator left on by mistake), there will not be an accident. -- Cynic |
Box Junction Penalty
In article , Conor
writes But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-) The law makes clear that this is allowed (if you are turning right), even though the highway code does not. Except you'll still get fined. That situatuion was what caused me to get my one and only fine. Sounds like a miscarriage of justice. Take it to the Appeal Court !! -- "It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99. |
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