I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did
stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the
crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine.

I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that
where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane
penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am
wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect
to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is
reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any
requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with
recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for
the signs associated with box junctions?

Robin

"Robin Smith" wrote in message
m...

I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that
where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane
penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am
wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect
to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is
reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any
requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with
recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for
the signs associated with box junctions?

You can try searching for for '1043' or '1044' in
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did
stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the
crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine.

Dude - do what that footballer did recently and send the form back unsigned
and then contest the penalty and the points in the magistrates court.

Apparently the road traffic act does not require you to sign the form.

"Stimpy" wrote in message
...

"Robin Cox" wrote in message
...
"Stimpy" wrote in message
...

"Richard J." wrote in message
...

In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop
sign?
You
don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on*
them is
allowed
if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic.

Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing
into
the box

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.shtml

=====
Highway Code rule 150:

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
However, you may
enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only
stopped from doing
so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

Cooo... you live and learn :-)

I didn't know about the exemption when you want to turn right either.

Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning
into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are
already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians
treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the
right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is
clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to
cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it
was safe to do so.

"mrjolly" wrote in message
...

"K" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote:



But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but
gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue?
:-)

I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of
action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent
posting established exactly what the Code does advise...


Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that
eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that
scenario happend to me on Sunday.

In this case, oncoming traffic should consider your place taken in the
queue
already.
i.e. The person turning left into the last slot should leave that space
for
you.

Usually traffic is moving slowly when this happens, so its just a matter
of
hoping that the last person to turn left is aware of this fact.
Fat chance with the drivers around my area.

What usually happens is that when you (the right-turner) see that the gap on
the right is big enough to take your car, you start to accelerate. As you
are doing so, the left-turning car nips in ahead of you. This leaves you
stranded in the box, not in a nice neat facing-ahead-but-about-to-turn-right
position but immediately behind the car that's nipped in ahead of you,
blocking the road for any other oncoming traffic :-( [So easy to draw a
diagram; so hard to describe in words!]

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In article m, Martin
Underwood writes
It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes
that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is
a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you
will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights
change :-(

Isn't the situation that you describe covered by the "are only stopped
from
doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right"
clause - the implication being that you must not enter the box if
anything
*else* prevents you completing the turn - for example the fact that
traffic
on your right is backed-up as far as the box.

I think you need a crystal ball. Imagine you are the first of the right-
turning cars. The road to the right is clear (at least one space to turn
into). But the oncoming traffic prevents you turning. And then an
oncoming car turns left, and fills up that space you used to have. Are
you suddenly a criminal? The same for the next car back, observing (if
indeed the sight-line is unobstructed) that there are spaces for two
cars in the road to the right, initially.

You've misunderstood what I said. As I see it, there are two situtations:

1. If you're turning right and traffic on the road that you want to take is
backed-up as far as the box junction, you do not enter the box junction,
even though you are wanting to turn right - because you are not *only*
prevented from turning by the oncoming traffic but *also* because your exit
from the box junction isn't clear.

2. If the exit on the right is clear but the only reason you can't turn
right is because of oncoming traffic, you may enter but must remain in the
middle of the road and not go as far as the exit from the box because this
would block oncoming traffic. It is usually only practicable for one vehicle
to sit in the centre of the road - any cars behind the "lead car" will form
a barrier which will block oncoming traffic that wants to turn to its right.

In case 1, when your exit becomes clear you enter the box junction and wait
in the centre - unless there's no oncoming traffic in which case you
complete the turn.

In case 2, when there's no more oncoming traffic you complete the turn.

In either case, an oncoming, left-turning car may "steal" your space between
the time that you start to move and the time when you would complete the
turn and leave the box junction. In this case you will be stranded on the
box junction, probably just before its exit, blocking oncoming traffic.

In all cases, I'm using "oncoming" to mean traffic that's going in the
opposite direction to your original direction before turning right.

"Richard J." wrote in message ...
Robin Smith wrote:
I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did
stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the
crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine.



There are no signs associated with box junctions. Just pay the fine for
chrissake.
As I said, I do intend to pay the fine (which will double if I do not
do so soon), but what with all these loop holes associated with bus
lane cameras and speed cameras, I was genuinely interested in knowing
whether there were similar loop holes associated with box junctions.

Since the penalty notice my awareness of box junctions has increased,
and my driving improved, so good will come of this. I am not the type
of person to challenge the law when I know I have done wrong.

Robin

"Robin Smith" wrote in message
m...
I have recently received a penalty notice for stopping in a box
junction on a busy London road intersection. I recognise that I did
stop in the box junction, for some time, and probably blocked the
crossing traffic, and I intend to pay the fine.

I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that
where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane
penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am
wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect
to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is
reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any
requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with
recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for
the signs associated with box junctions?

Three Robins on one thread - it must be Christmas!

Can I ask how the offence was detected, by camera or by being stopped
by a PC or Parking Attendant, and who is pursuing you for the Penalty Charge,
a London Borough or TfL.

I don't think box junctions require signs - I can think of many locations where
there are no signs, just the road marking.


Robin

They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need to be any
other for them to take effect.

--

Does a box-junction offence carry penalty points or is it like a
parking offence? (Bus-lane offences do not carry penalty points either
except I think on contra-flow bus-lanes)