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Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times
On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant
wrote: On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote: Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by 25%? That's what they say: "Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to different destinations via different branches. It is possible to achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome. "A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station capacity improvements at Camden Town." Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to the service pattern. Blaming the service pattern will be handy when the upgrade can't deliver enough to justify its cost ... but then I'm cynical. |
#2
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Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, MIG wrote:
On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant wrote: On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote: Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by 25%? That's what they say: "Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to different destinations via different branches. It is possible to achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome. "A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station capacity improvements at Camden Town." Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to the service pattern. Huh? It seems quite clear to me. The situation post-upgrade will be 22-25 tph on the branches; changing the service pattern will raise it to 30 tph. I don't think you can say that 'increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade' if the upgrade alone doesn't cause it! tom -- Also giving up smoking (cigarettes) today so apologies if it reads wierd or I trail off into maddness at any point!! -- Agent D, 20051129 |
#3
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Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times
On Aug 28, 4:23 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, MIG wrote: On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant wrote: On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote: Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by 25%? That's what they say: "Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to different destinations via different branches. It is possible to achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome. "A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station capacity improvements at Camden Town." Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to the service pattern. Huh? It seems quite clear to me. The situation post-upgrade will be 22-25 tph on the branches; changing the service pattern will raise it to 30 tph. I don't think you can say that 'increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade' if the upgrade alone doesn't cause it! I am inferring that the upgrade will be claimed to allow a theoretical 30 tph on any given section, but that 30 tph will not apply. This will be excused on the grounds of the existing service pattern rather than a failure of the upgrade, which will achieve what it claims without actually having to achieve it. |
#4
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Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, MIG wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:23 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, MIG wrote: On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant wrote: On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote: Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by 25%? That's what they say: "Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to different destinations via different branches. It is possible to achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome. "A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station capacity improvements at Camden Town." Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to the service pattern. Huh? It seems quite clear to me. The situation post-upgrade will be 22-25 tph on the branches; changing the service pattern will raise it to 30 tph. I don't think you can say that 'increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade' if the upgrade alone doesn't cause it! I am inferring that the upgrade will be claimed to allow a theoretical 30 tph on any given section, but that 30 tph will not apply. This will be excused on the grounds of the existing service pattern rather than a failure of the upgrade, which will achieve what it claims without actually having to achieve it. I see. You're predicting that they're going to claim that the upgrade will allow 30 tph, without reference to a service pattern change. Is that right? If they do do that, and then use the service pattern as an excuse when they can't deliver 30 tph, then you're quite right, that's smoke and mirrors. But they haven't done that, and, in fact, they've explicitly said, in whatever U was quoting, that that won't be the case. I'd say it's the smoke and mirrors which is hypothetical at this point! tom -- File under 'directionless space novelty ultimately ruined by poor self-editing' |
#5
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Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times
On Aug 30, 1:18 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, MIG wrote: On Aug 28, 4:23 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, MIG wrote: On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant wrote: On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote: Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by 25%? That's what they say: "Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to different destinations via different branches. It is possible to achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome. "A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station capacity improvements at Camden Town." Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to the service pattern. Huh? It seems quite clear to me. The situation post-upgrade will be 22-25 tph on the branches; changing the service pattern will raise it to 30 tph. I don't think you can say that 'increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade' if the upgrade alone doesn't cause it! I am inferring that the upgrade will be claimed to allow a theoretical 30 tph on any given section, but that 30 tph will not apply. This will be excused on the grounds of the existing service pattern rather than a failure of the upgrade, which will achieve what it claims without actually having to achieve it. I see. You're predicting that they're going to claim that the upgrade will allow 30 tph, without reference to a service pattern change. Is that right? If they do do that, and then use the service pattern as an excuse when they can't deliver 30 tph, then you're quite right, that's smoke and mirrors. But they haven't done that, and, in fact, they've explicitly said, in whatever U was quoting, that that won't be the case. I'd say it's the smoke and mirrors which is hypothetical at this point! tom At the very least, there are different measures being applied to the "before" and the "after". If so much could be achieved by changing the service pattern, the perceived value of the upgrade would be reduced. It's having it all ways, I suspect. |
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