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Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
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Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get Interesting suggestions. Mostly fairly pedestrian, but LTW's job is to focus on things which can be practically delivered. Things which struck me: "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? How much time does that save over running in service? "Indeed we have seen no convincing explanation of why LUL can work on the basis of routine engineering access being provided largely at night, whereas on four-track sections of its network Network Rail imposes timetables which give it carte blanch Sunday access to 50% of the tracks." That isn't quite fair - on LU, the overnight closures are supplemented by a generous serving of weekend closures on many lines. Okay, so the tube is being heavily renewed rather than just maintained, but still. "We believe that the Dutch/Swiss Taktfahrplan system should be the model to adopt, with timetables planned on the mirror-image principle so that connections between trains are as good in one direction as they are in the other." The what now? There's a footnote about this earlier on that refers to LTW's 'Requirements for Train Services - Principles', but that doesn't make things enormously clearer to me. Probably because i'm not really aware of these "different patterns in each direction" situations. Anyway, sounds like a splendid plan! Treble kirsches all round! "work should start now to arrange for the transfer and refurbishment of Class 313 units as soon as they can be released from the London Overground." AAAAAARGH! 313s! 313s don't need refurbishment, they need a stake through the transformer and burying! Still, this is the only practical option at the moment. "However for weekday evenings, when the Moorgate service has recently been successfully extended to run up to 2200, the level of activity in the City and around Old Street is such that there appears to be a strong case for a further extension to the normal close of traffic." Amen to that. On fridays and saturdays, they could run those trains all night and have people on them. I've often been going home from an evening in the City, on various weeknights, and gone to Moorgate in an attempt to get a train straight home to Finsbury Park, and been thwarted. "An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenals new Emirates stadium." Bloody right! "The present situation is that Drayton Park station one of the closest to the stadium is closed when most events take place." Exactly! *******s! "Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. However opposite the present platform, on the down side, there is vacant land on which an additional platform could be built." Excellent idea, and why on earth was this not in the RUS? "London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. tom -- The final chapter, prophetic, poetic |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? How much time does that save over running in service? I presume they spend the day in Hornsey depot, which doesn't give you much of a service. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get Interesting suggestions. Mostly fairly pedestrian, but LTW's job is to focus on things which can be practically delivered. Things which struck me: "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? How much time does that save over running in service? "Indeed we have seen no convincing explanation of why LUL can work on the basis of routine engineering access being provided largely at night, whereas on four-track sections of its network Network Rail imposes timetables which give it carte blanch Sunday access to 50% of the tracks." That isn't quite fair - on LU, the overnight closures are supplemented by a generous serving of weekend closures on many lines. Okay, so the tube is being heavily renewed rather than just maintained, but still. "We believe that the Dutch/Swiss Taktfahrplan system should be the model to adopt, with timetables planned on the mirror-image principle so that connections between trains are as good in one direction as they are in the other." The what now? There's a footnote about this earlier on that refers to LTW's 'Requirements for Train Services - Principles', but that doesn't make things enormously clearer to me. Probably because i'm not really aware of these "different patterns in each direction" situations. Anyway, sounds like a splendid plan! Treble kirsches all round! "work should start now to arrange for the transfer and refurbishment of Class 313 units as soon as they can be released from the London Overground." AAAAAARGH! 313s! 313s don't need refurbishment, they need a stake through the transformer and burying! Still, this is the only practical option at the moment. "However for weekday evenings, when the Moorgate service has recently been successfully extended to run up to 2200, the level of activity in the City and around Old Street is such that there appears to be a strong case for a further extension to the normal close of traffic." Amen to that. On fridays and saturdays, they could run those trains all night and have people on them. I've often been going home from an evening in the City, on various weeknights, and gone to Moorgate in an attempt to get a train straight home to Finsbury Park, and been thwarted. "An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenals new Emirates stadium." Bloody right! "The present situation is that Drayton Park station one of the closest to the stadium is closed when most events take place." Exactly! *******s! "Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. However opposite the present platform, on the down side, there is vacant land on which an additional platform could be built." Excellent idea, and why on earth was this not in the RUS? "London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends? It was open on Sundays from the late 1970s when it reopened after the transfer. I am not clear on when it closed. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
Tom Anderson wrote:
Things which struck me: "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? Yes, empty north of Finsbury Park. How much time does that save over running in service? A lot. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 12:15 am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote: On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get Interesting suggestions. Mostly fairly pedestrian, but LTW's job is to focus on things which can be practically delivered. Things which struck me: "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? How much time does that save over running in service? "Indeed we have seen no convincing explanation of why LUL can work on the basis of routine engineering access being provided largely at night, whereas on four-track sections of its network Network Rail imposes timetables which give it carte blanch Sunday access to 50% of the tracks." That isn't quite fair - on LU, the overnight closures are supplemented by a generous serving of weekend closures on many lines. Okay, so the tube is being heavily renewed rather than just maintained, but still. "We believe that the Dutch/Swiss Taktfahrplan system should be the model to adopt, with timetables planned on the mirror-image principle so that connections between trains are as good in one direction as they are in the other." The what now? There's a footnote about this earlier on that refers to LTW's 'Requirements for Train Services - Principles', but that doesn't make things enormously clearer to me. Probably because i'm not really aware of these "different patterns in each direction" situations. Anyway, sounds like a splendid plan! Treble kirsches all round! "work should start now to arrange for the transfer and refurbishment of Class 313 units as soon as they can be released from the London Overground." AAAAAARGH! 313s! 313s don't need refurbishment, they need a stake through the transformer and burying! Still, this is the only practical option at the moment. "However for weekday evenings, when the Moorgate service has recently been successfully extended to run up to 2200, the level of activity in the City and around Old Street is such that there appears to be a strong case for a further extension to the normal close of traffic." Amen to that. On fridays and saturdays, they could run those trains all night and have people on them. I've often been going home from an evening in the City, on various weeknights, and gone to Moorgate in an attempt to get a train straight home to Finsbury Park, and been thwarted. "An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenals new Emirates stadium." Bloody right! "The present situation is that Drayton Park station one of the closest to the stadium is closed when most events take place." Exactly! *******s! "Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. However opposite the present platform, on the down side, there is vacant land on which an additional platform could be built." Excellent idea, and why on earth was this not in the RUS? "London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends? It was open on Sundays from the late 1970s when it reopened after the transfer. I am not clear on when it closed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I forget the exact dates, but it started to close on Sundays in the early 80s and on Saturdays and late evenings in about 1986/7, at a time when off-peak traffic was very light and there were spare paths into Kings Cross. Nowadays, the use of KX at weekends restricts the Sat and Sun services to 2 tph rather than 3. (A couple of years ago, the opening hours were extended to about 2150 rather than 2030.) IMO, FWIW, the service should run to Moorgate Mon-Sat and KX Sun. The Barbican Centre is a potential major source of traffic in the evenings but the last trains depart just before most performances finish! It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC to pay - why should they? |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article , Tom
Anderson writes "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another with-flow service. How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:
"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC to pay - why should they?- The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already been fixed when planning permission was granted. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenal's new Emirates stadium. The present situation is that Drayton Park station - one of the closest to the stadium - is closed when most events take place. Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. However opposite the present platform, on the down side, there is vacant land on which an additional platform could be built. London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme. This would benefit passengers for whom the Drayton Park route is convenient, and users of other local stations who would experience less congestion as a result. http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/...06/09/2622.asp quote £2.5 million earmarked for Drayton Park Station Date: 08-Sep-06 by charles dean Islington Council is to investigate how to make it easier for fans to attend matches at Arsenal football stadium. A feasibility study looking at major improvements to Drayton Park Station is underway, and if the plans prove viable then £2.5million could be spent on increasing rail capacity, so more people can travel by train. As part of the planning conditions for the new Emirates stadium in Ashburton Grove, it was agreed that a feasibility study be carried out to investigate rail capacity options for the station. Three main areas will be looked at as part of the study: * enhancing and improving the station and its facilities * extending train services through Drayton Park, on the line connecting Finsbury Park, Drayton Park and Highbury and Islington * extending train services between Finsbury Park and Moorgate. At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on weekends, then up to £2million will be made available. Cllr Terry Stacy, Executive Member for Housing and Communities, said: "This study will look at the role Drayton Park plays on match days, as well as supporting the regeneration of the surrounding area. "We are delighted to be working with train company, First Capital Connect, and the London Development Agency to examine options for improving the station and local train services. Working together has already paid off with improved rail services via Finsbury Park on match days". For further information please contact Helen Fallon, Senior Transport Planner, on 020 7527 2785. Ends Notes to Editors: The London Development Agency will fund the study, the outcome of which is likely to be announced later this year. unquote |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Tue, 2 Oct 2007 00:01:47
+0100 .li: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get [snip perverse desire for exorcism of 313s] "An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenals new Emirates stadium." "The present situation is that Drayton Park station one of the closest to the stadium is closed when most events take place." "Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. Which excuse is, patently, unmitigated bollox. There's a large paved area outside the station at street level which would be ideal for queuing, as happens at every other station near a football/other large capacity venue, and as used to happen at Gillespie Road. The difference is, I think. more to do with the fact that pretty well everywhere else it is LU who provide the staff for crowd/barrier control, whereas this would eat into FCC's profits. -- hike - a walking tour or outing, esp. of the self-conscious kind Chambers 20th Century Dictionary |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 10:11 am, Dave Hillam ] wrote:
"Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. Which excuse is, patently, unmitigated bollox. There's a large paved area outside the station at street level which would be ideal for queuing, as happens at every other station near a football/other large capacity venue, and as used to happen at Gillespie Road. The difference is, I think. more to do with the fact that pretty well everywhere else it is LU who provide the staff for crowd/barrier control, whereas this would eat into FCC's profits. A case perhaps for transferring the route to London Overground? |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Tom Anderson writes "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another with-flow service. Okay, that's what i suspected. How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and a fully in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer. Assuming that two-thirds of the trains (4 tph of 6 tph) currently do the half-ECS cycle, then that means going to having all trains running in service requires 10.5% more trains. So, this pattern is a substantial economy. Will the release of 313s from the NLL be enough to cover that 10.5%? Are there other demands on those trains too? tom -- **** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the Cinna-bon. -- K-Real |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:
On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote: "London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC to pay - why should they?- The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already been fixed when planning permission was granted. But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so that might still be available. Also, as you quote: At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on weekends, then up to £2million will be made available. It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service, so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works. I should drop an email to TfL or something. tom -- **** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the Cinna-bon. -- K-Real |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In article , Tom Anderson writes "on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another with-flow service. Okay, that's what i suspected. How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and a fully in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer. But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the mornings.) |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On 2 Oct, 00:15, MIG wrote:
So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends? It was open on Sundays from the late 1970s when it reopened after the transfer. I am not clear on when it closed. There are lots of things that don't make sense, but appear to be down to 'it's always been like that'. At KGX, Network Rail has possession of all lines from a certain time (1am?) on Saturday night to Sunday morning - regardless of whether there is maintenance to be done. It apparently can't be changed as it's 'set in stone' and leads to a ridiculous situation where the ONLY day of the week where there isn't a very late train (0136 to Peterborough, calling at most stations en route) is the night when there would be potentially be the highest demand. I've been on the 0036 and 0136 trains many times, and if there have been any major events in town even during the week, I've been standing all the way home! Clearly there's revenue to be had there, and I know FCC want to run later trains. I presume TfL would quite like to do that too. In fact, who wouldn't want to see later trains? Now, maintenance does of course need to be done but much work (bar overhead lines) should be done with partial possession. There are four lines FFS!!! Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday night would be to use a bus ALL the time! Jonathan |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:31:37 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote: "London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a contribution to such a scheme." S106 = Arsenal pays. It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC to pay - why should they?- The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already been fixed when planning permission was granted. But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so that might still be available. limited knowledge mode Err no money has been spent at Highbury - at least not to my eyes and I use the station on a weekly basis. The work at Finsbury Park was on the station place bus station which I believe is all TfL funded as was the traffic rerouting and traffic lights. More work is scheduled at FP to open up some circulation space and install MIP lifts. This is being combined with the PPP contracted works into one overall scheme. I think ticket gates get put in as part of the scheme - it's a fair while since I've seen the plans. Nothing is being taken forward at Holloway Road as no scheme was found to be feasible after a lot of planning work. The next work at HR will be the PPP modernisation work but nothing on capacity works. I don't think Arsenal have paid out anything of any great substance despite the conditions that were set but I might be wrong on that. Also, as you quote: At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on weekends, then up to £2million will be made available. It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service, so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works. I think there is theoretically a lot of money still sloshing around given the lack of any substantive scheme to provide enough capacity. The big problem is that Arsenal's contribution is far too small to fully fund the scale of works needed at LU locations given they are all subsurface and therefore very costly. Something on the surface at Drayton Park might well be more feasible and more affordable but perhaps not good value for money overall given the low non football usage of the station (linked to the poor overall service!). -- Paul C |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
Tom Anderson:
"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2 tph." Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up north? Clive Feather: The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another with-flow service. How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? -- Mark Brader, Toronto, "The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
"Mwmbwls" wrote in message ps.com... On Oct 2, 10:11 am, Dave Hillam ] wrote: "Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected crowds. Which excuse is, patently, unmitigated bollox. There's a large paved area outside the station at street level which would be ideal for queuing, as happens at every other station near a football/other large capacity venue, and as used to happen at Gillespie Road. The difference is, I think. more to do with the fact that pretty well everywhere else it is LU who provide the staff for crowd/barrier control, whereas this would eat into FCC's profits. A case perhaps for transferring the route to London Overground? And to get round the island platform overcrowding, build another platform on the disused railway land, and depending on the level of funding available, stick PEDs (shed loads of cash) of a sodding great advertising hoarding (cheap version, possibly even with an element of self funding) along the edge of the no longer required side of the island platform giving you 1 up and 1 down platform to prevent multiple "Gooner-unders" and Robert is most definitely your mother's brother. Then stick in a Mon - Sat service to about 00:30 - 01:00 so I can to and from the Bavarian Beerhouse the easy way and I might even say something nice about First Crap Con occasionally! -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In message , Kevin Ashley
writes But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the mornings.) I've been on (a selection of) the contra-flow trains and they are surprisingly empty [1] but it's certainly not convenient and definitely frustrating. Back in the early 90s the trains used to go out of service back at Moorgate (now I am reminded by another poster that they run in service back to Finsbury Park); I strongly suspect they've been tweaked to create the maximum service possible with current stock levels. [1] various locations on route do offer employment outside of London! -- Paul G Typing from Barking |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:53:57 -0700, jonmorris
wrote: In fact, who wouldn't want to see later trains? The people who'd have to clean the puke off? ;) Now, maintenance does of course need to be done but much work (bar overhead lines) should be done with partial possession. There are four lines FFS!!! Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday night would be to use a bus ALL the time! Which is roughly what Silverlink do, so "can't be bothered" is probably the explanation. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 12:29 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, wrote: It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC to pay - why should they? Because it's their customers who are making the improvement necessary! tom Sadly, being rather too cynical, I'm sure that AFC's attitude would be that few, if any, of their fans would not travel to a home match because Drayton Park station wasn't open. They'd simply walk from FP instead and either blame "British Rail"/FCC or the "'Elf and Safety" brigade for the problem. Anyway, why waste money on transport improvements when they could waste it on ever-higher salaries for their players and manager? |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article , Kevin Ashley
writes [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there may be even greater. Moorgate to: ECS Service WGC 33.5 46 Gordon Hill 19.5 31.5 Hertford North 34 47 Stevenage via HN 43.5 58.5 Letchworth via HN 51 69-71 -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article , Tom
Anderson writes Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) No, a diagram is the complete set of workings of a train. So, using an old WTT that I have to hand, a typical diagram is: 5B99 03:53 Hornsey EMD - KX (ECS, divides to form 2B99 and 2B00) 2B00 05:26 KX - Hertford North 2J01 06:35 Hertford North - Moorgate 3V91 07:30 Moorgate - WGC (ECS) 2K91 08:18 WGC - Moorgate 2B03 09:12 Moorgate - Hertford North 2J05 10:33 Hertford North - Moorgate 2B08 11:32 Moorgate - Hertford North 2J09 12:33 Hertford North - Moorgate 2B12 13:32 Moorgate - Hertford North 2J13 14:33 Hertford North - Moorgate 2B16 15:32 Moorgate - Hertford North 3K54 16:34 Hertford North - Moorgate (ECS) 2V30 17:25 Moorgate - WGC 3R24 18:18 WGC - KX (ECS) 2R24 18:53 KX - Letchworth via WGC 5R24 19:49 Letchworth - Letchworth Carriage Sidings -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article , Mark Brader
writes How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On 2 Oct, 20:56, (Neil Williams) wrote:
The people who'd have to clean the puke off? ;) Plenty of people manage to puke on the trains before 0136!! Myself included, although I've always made it to the toilet! Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday night would be to use a bus ALL the time! Which is roughly what Silverlink do, so "can't be bothered" is probably the explanation. I doubt any TOC would ever schedule a service that is ALWAYS booked as being run by a bus. Nor am I sure they would be allowed to anyway! I mean, how could you propose to run a service when the railway isn't available to you? I know First run buses, but imagine if all TOCs got the idea of running buses instead of trains on a regular basis. Time to close the railways altogether and to hell with timetables and quick journey times. If Silverlink are doing this then shame on them - but are there not similar circumstances (long term engineering or a 'set in stone' possession by Notwork Rail)? Jonathan |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On 2 Oct, 21:42, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. Possibly, although you could perhaps run the service like the semi- fast Peterborough/Cambridge services in the day (xx06/xx36 from KGX), meaning it would stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield & Welwyn Garden City. It would then be a pretty recognisable stopping pattern. While many of us pretty much know the stopping pattern by the train type, time of departure or even the platform number (not an exact science but usually good enough), I don't think many other people know or care. The 0944 and 1014 (the 1014 is not in the current timetable) often use(d) a 313 to do WGC, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and King's Cross. On the slow line it's a 75mph limit anyway, so bar the slower acceleration the times aren't that different. The bottleneck is beyond WGC, so on the inner-suburban lines there is a fair bit of capacity available. Technically, it's pretty irrelevant because; a) During the off-peak times the trains aren't that busy anyway. b) The timings of these additional services may be such that they're only a few minutes apart from the current semi-fast trains (and, see a). c) Many 313s are unreliable enough as it is (many have door interlocking problems) so until they're all fixed - hopefully as part of the refresh - you won't want many more running as they'll only end up screwing up the service completely! d) In the long term, with new stock and many other changes as part of the capacity study, the whole timetable is going to be torn up and redone! The only reason to consider some tweaks is because all of this talk is about 7 or 8 years from now, so there could be a few improvements made in the short term. Jonathan |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 2, 9:42 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article , Mark Brader writes How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. At any time of day, I am not really clear why anyone getting on at Moorgate wants all stations while anyone getting on at Kings Cross doesn't (except at the weekend). |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, MIG wrote:
On Oct 2, 9:42 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the- train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article , Mark Brader writes How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. At any time of day, I am not really clear why anyone getting on at Moorgate wants all stations ? Why wouldn't they? A stopping train is what you want for local journeys, which, if anything, will be more prevalent outside the peaks, when all those long-distance commuters are safely locked up at work. tom -- megaptera novae angliae, soundwork chris draper, push, pull, open, .. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 3, 5:26 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, MIG wrote: On Oct 2, 9:42 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the- train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article , Mark Brader writes How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. At any time of day, I am not really clear why anyone getting on at Moorgate wants all stations ? Why wouldn't they? A stopping train is what you want for local journeys, which, if anything, will be more prevalent outside the peaks, when all those long-distance commuters are safely locked up at work. That's not my question. I am saying why is it everyone getting on at Moorgate who wants all stations and everyone getting on at Kings Cross wants fast or semifast? I can't see why there couldn't be a pattern at any time of day that included some stopping and some less-stopping from both Moorgate and Kings Cross. My only guess is that they'd want to combine less-stopping with longer distance, and not have enough 313s, but that's nothing to do with passenger demand. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 3, 8:29 am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:26 am, Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, MIG wrote: On Oct 2, 9:42 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the- train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article , Mark Brader writes How much time does that save over running in service? 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. At any time of day, I am not really clear why anyone getting on at Moorgate wants all stations ? Why wouldn't they? A stopping train is what you want for local journeys, which, if anything, will be more prevalent outside the peaks, when all those long-distance commuters are safely locked up at work. That's not my question. I am saying why is it everyone getting on at Moorgate who wants all stations and everyone getting on at Kings Cross wants fast or semifast? I can't see why there couldn't be a pattern at any time of day that included some stopping and some less-stopping from both Moorgate and Kings Cross. My only guess is that they'd want to combine less-stopping with longer distance, and not have enough 313s, but that's nothing to do with passenger demand.- And 313s not being suitable of course. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
Tom Anderson:
How much time does that save over running in service? Clive Feather: 12.5 minutes. [Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.] Mark Brader: What if they ran back in service, but nonstop? Clive Feather: I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny... Maybe, but if the train has to make the trip anyway, why not earn a bit of revenue and benefit those passengers? Anyway, my question is, would it affect the trip time if they did? compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. I'm not familiar with the timetable, but from what's been said in this thread, it's already asymmetrical. -- Mark Brader "The routes 'London' and 'not London' are Toronto not necessarily mutually exclusive." --Tim Stevens for ATOC, UK My text in this article is in the public domain. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article . com, MIG
writes That's not my question. I am saying why is it everyone getting on at Moorgate who wants all stations and everyone getting on at Kings Cross wants fast or semifast? It isn't. I can't see why there couldn't be a pattern at any time of day that included some stopping and some less-stopping from both Moorgate and Kings Cross. You could do that, yes. In this case, you don't want 313s to go too far as they aren't designed for long distance (e.g. no toilets). More generally, it's easier to design a robust service if each route is consistent and you have an easy interchange, than if the two services have to interlink. You get rather less "performance pollution". -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
In article , Mark Brader
writes I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak is tiny... Maybe, but if the train has to make the trip anyway, why not earn a bit of revenue and benefit those passengers? Two reasons. Firstly, passengers can cause delays - the most obvious example being someone who uses a wheelchair. The trains we're talking about run as class 3: "ECS to be given priority over any late workings, even class 1 expresses, because it forms a key service". They don't want to risk delaying the next with-peak working. Secondly, I believe that TOCs have to pay track usage charges for all passenger services but get a certain number of ECS workings thrown in free. So it's cheaper. Anyway, my question is, would it affect the trip time if they did? A little bit, because you have to make the station stops - each probably costs about 40 seconds. In this case, there are quite possibly *no* passengers wanting to go end-to-end and not use any intermediate station. compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable. I'm not familiar with the timetable, but from what's been said in this thread, it's already asymmetrical. There are more with-peak trains, yes, but the basic pattern of service is the same - all stops from Moorgate to WGC, Hertford North, Stevenage, or Letchworth. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:55:46 -0700, jonmorris wrote:
Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday night would be to use a bus ALL the time! Which is roughly what Silverlink do, so "can't be bothered" is probably the explanation. I doubt any TOC would ever schedule a service that is ALWAYS booked as being run by a bus. Nor am I sure they would be allowed to anyway! I mean, how could you propose to run a service when the railway isn't available to you? I know First run buses, but imagine if all TOCs got the idea of running buses instead of trains on a regular basis. Time to close the railways altogether and to hell with timetables and quick journey times. If Silverlink are doing this then shame on them - but are there not similar circumstances (long term engineering or a 'set in stone' possession by Notwork Rail)? IIRC, for a while the 0200 EUS-MKC on Saturday nights was only a train as far as Watford Junction, where it turned into a bus, but it's now back to being a train throughout. |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:52:13 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote: There are more with-peak trains, yes, but the basic pattern of service is the same - all stops from Moorgate to WGC, Hertford North, Stevenage, or Letchworth. There is some variation in stopping pattern north of Finsbury Park during the peaks at least: some trains skipping Harringay and Hornsey and a few running non-stop between Finsbury Park and Palmers Green. Still, I can see that longer non-stop runs would be confusing, especially as at present all trains stop at all stations along the Northern City Line. Martin |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once .... i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a The cynic in me wonders what would be in it for FCC to improve the service in this way. They already blame overcrowding on a their customers holding flexible tickets and the same argument could be made here - they would make little extra income from the traffic. They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife. Sad they can't seem to see the bigger picture, and whilst Ken might see beyond this and pay for the services, I bet he'd end up paying forever... Cheers, Dave |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On Oct 4, 2:00 pm, DaveP wrote:
They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife. 3 of the 5 stations are LUL run and don't have any obvious FCC staff, and unlike King's Cross they do have barriers. The RUS puts the cost of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at £170,000/year, mainly for extra staff to keep the line open. It also suggests Saturday running might be needed to free space at KX. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatch reponse to RUS
On 4 Oct, 14:00, DaveP wrote:
Sad they can't seem to see the bigger picture, and whilst Ken might see beyond this and pay for the services, I bet he'd end up paying forever... First are very pro-active on protecting revenue on the trains, which is why they do set up regular late night on-train checks and gateline checks at night (right up to the last train). I've seen many people panic when they're suddenly presented with RPIs that usually go straight to the first class compartments. It seems to work though, as I've followed them through a late night train and there are actually now relatively few people not carrying valid tickets. It goes to show that if you can make people think there's a slightly higher than average chance of being caught, they won't chance it. FCC seemed keen to run later trains, and I'm sure that if they worked with TfL as part of the 'bigger picture' on late night travel in and around London, they could possibly get some subsidy but it wouldn't have to cost that much. Most money would come from fares - and these trains aren't exactly running half empty even on a Monday or Tuesday night. Jonathan |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, DaveP wrote:
There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once ... i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a The cynic in me wonders what would be in it for FCC to improve the service in this way. They already blame overcrowding on a their customers holding flexible tickets and the same argument could be made here - they would make little extra income from the traffic. Bear in mind that most of the additional traffic, i think, will come from people out and about in the City - Shoreditch - Islington area going home, not commuters coming home later. I doubt many of the revellers have seasons on that line. They might have travelcards, in which case FCC's share of the travelcard pie would go up. Most of them are probably PAYG users, in which case FCC would be selling them tickets. Either way, more money for FCC. They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife. Moorgate, Old Street, Essex Road and Highbury & Islington are underground, so section 12 applies - they couldn't be run unstaffed. And as U points out, three of those are currently run by LU anyway, with no FCC presence needed. Drayton Park could be run unstaffed, but not many people are going to be getting on there, as it's more of a destination than an origin, so fare losses would be minimal. tom -- Tubes are the foul subterranean entrails of the London beast, stuffed with the day's foetid offerings. -- Tokugawa |
Great Northern inner surburban services - London travelwatchreponse to RUS
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
The RUS puts the cost of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at £170,000/year, mainly for extra staff to keep the line open. Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each (Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales, anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That sounds like quite a lot, but plausible. tom -- Tubes are the foul subterranean entrails of the London beast, stuffed with the day's foetid offerings. -- Tokugawa |
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