I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but I
wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink network?)

Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?

--
Abi

"Abigail Brady" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but I
wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink network?)

Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?


Gradient would definitely be an issue, but isn't the Bank/Monument station
complex in the way of the direct route as well? Multilevel tracks and
station/escalator tunnels for Central/Northern/DLR and Drain, and
connections between the two stations. When DLR extensions have been
suggested in the past it is usually mentioned that the Bank of England
vaults are in the way too!

I trust you are looking at a geographical map rather than the 'tube map'
btw...

Paul S

On Oct 8, 10:25 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Abigail Brady" wrote in message

ups.com...

I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but I
wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink network?)

Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?

Gradient would definitely be an issue, but isn't the Bank/Monument station
complex in the way of the direct route as well? Multilevel tracks and
station/escalator tunnels for Central/Northern/DLR and Drain, and
connections between the two stations. When DLR extensions have been
suggested in the past it is usually mentioned that the Bank of England
vaults are in the way too!

I trust you are looking at a geographical map rather than the 'tube map'
btw...


I think that the demolition of the Mansion House and the Bank of
England might be problematic. Probably not as problematic as diving
sharply enough from the viaduct that Cannon Street is on to get under
the whole Bank station complex. That could be a new record gradient.

Funnily enough, the buildings between Cannon Street and the Mansion
House have recently been demolished and something else is presumably
about to be built there, so I think that the chance has been missed.

The only remaining possibility would be to start tunnelling south of
the Thames and replace London Bridge and Cannon Street with new
underground stations. It could be called Crosslink or Thamesrail or
something.

Paul Scott wrote:
"Abigail Brady" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but
I wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink
network?) Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial
difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?


Gradient would definitely be an issue, but isn't the Bank/Monument
station complex in the way of the direct route as well?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltmonu.jpg

It might be able to run through next to the Northern Line.

When DLR extensions
have been suggested in the past it is usually mentioned that the Bank
of England vaults are in the way too!

No, the Waterloo & City is the one which can't be extended without hitting
the bank vaults.

The gradient problems can't be got around (or got under). Extending the
Northern City to a deep terminus the length of Walbrook would give nearly
all of the benefits quite cheaply.

On 8 Oct, 23:13, MIG wrote:
On Oct 8, 10:25 pm, "Paul Scott"
The only remaining possibility would be to start tunnelling south of
the Thames and replace London Bridge and Cannon Street with new
underground stations. It could be called Crosslink or Thamesrail or
something.

Oddly enough, one of the Thameslink 2000 route options was a huge
tunnel under the Thames from just east of London Bridge to Farringdon.
It would have been enormously expensive, and got in the way of the
foundations for the Shard.

On 9 Oct, 02:08, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:
"Abigail Brady" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but
I wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink
network?) Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial
difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?

Gradient would definitely be an issue, but isn't the Bank/Monument
station complex in the way of the direct route as well?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltmonu.jpg

It might be able to run through next to the Northern Line.

When DLR extensions
have been suggested in the past it is usually mentioned that the Bank
of England vaults are in the way too!

No, the Waterloo & City is the one which can't be extended without hitting
the bank vaults.

The gradient problems can't be got around (or got under). Extending the
Northern City to a deep terminus the length of Walbrook would give nearly
all of the benefits quite cheaply.

The Northern City is above the northern line - the only way to get
next to or below the northern line is to veer off the route, which
would make it hit bank vaults of one sort or another.

The problem with that is that the walbrook (a river) crosses the path
just east of 1 Poulty. Its in the way of any extension of the Northern
City line south of Poultry. You could divert the Walbrook slightly,
but at some point you'd still need to cross it, although it wouldn't
be such an obstruction to join it up with the Waterloo + City line
(although it has a completely different gauge). On the other hand, if
you did that, you'd need to build completely new access from the
Waterloo + city to the rest of Bank station and to the exit, because
the current access would be in the way of any extension; if you are
going to do that, you might as well build new platforms somewhere just
along the extension, much nearer the rest of bank. That would leave
the current platforms abandoned, unless you built new access to them,
like they are going to do when they demolish bucklersbury house.....

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
Paul Scott wrote:
"Abigail Brady" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but
I wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern
City Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon
Street, making Cannon Street into a through station. This would
allow, say, the extension of Northern City Line services to London
Bridge and points onward (possibly as part of the Thameslink
network?) Has this ever been suggested? Are they any especial
difficulties
apart from the sheer cost of tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England
vaults?, I can also imagine the gradient being a problem)?


Gradient would definitely be an issue, but isn't the Bank/Monument
station complex in the way of the direct route as well?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltmonu.jpg

It might be able to run through next to the Northern Line.

When DLR extensions
have been suggested in the past it is usually mentioned that the Bank
of England vaults are in the way too!

No, the Waterloo & City is the one which can't be extended without hitting
the bank vaults.

The gradient problems can't be got around (or got under). Extending the
Northern City to a deep terminus the length of Walbrook would give nearly
all of the benefits quite cheaply.


These sorts of questions would be much easier to answer if there were a
3D 'walk-through' computer model of sub-surface London, with its tunnels,
vaults and other services.
It's commonly done for new buildings, so why couldn't it be done for
existing underground structures ?
I suppose it's too much much to expect there already is one ?

Jim Hawkins

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Abigail Brady" wrote in message
ups.com...

I was pondering a map the other day, and I noted quite how close
Moorgate and Cannon Street are. I guess the city widened lines to
Moorgate are a lost cause due to the planned work at Farringdon, but I
wondered whether it has ever been suggested to extend the Northern City
Line south of Moorgate and link up with the line at Cannon Street,
making Cannon Street into a through station.

Has this ever been suggested?

Yes, about every eighteen months on this group!

Are they any especial difficulties apart from the sheer cost of
tunnelling in EC2. (Bank of England vaults?, I can also imagine the
gradient being a problem)?

Gradient would definitely be an issue

Cannon Street bridge is 7.1 metres above the high water level of the
Thames [1], perhaps less at the ends. The rail deck will be a little above
that - not more than 9 metres, and probably less. It's about 260 metres
from the point where the bridge makes landfall to Cannon Street itself,
where the space occupied by the station ends (ish). If you hollowed out
the existing station and put in a downward-sloping track at a gradient of
1:30 (generally considered the practical maximum, i think), you could drop
8.5 metres in that distance, leaving you at about the level of the river.
You need about four metres over the top of the track for the train (six if
you want OHLE, which we don't). If Cannon Street is four metres or more
above the level of the river, this idea is just about plausible - at least
this far!

In terms of getting to Moorgate, you're then alright, as you have about
650 metres to run, in which space you can dive another 20 metres, which i
think is enough. The problem, of course, is all the buildings and whatnot
in between the two. If you could run under Walbrook and Prince's St,
though, you might be alright. You might need to demolish No 1 Poultry, but
it's a horrible building anyway.

Don't ask me about how it all fits in with the Bank station complex.
Didn't someone say they thought that was plausible?

Lonelytraveller mentioned the Walbrook; i don't know what you'd do about
that either.

When DLR extensions have been suggested in the past it is usually
mentioned that the Bank of England vaults are in the way too!

The vaults thing is a red herring when it comes to the NCL, though - there
have been serious proposals from the time it opened up to the 1960s to
extend it southward, and none of those had any problem with vaults.

The alternative to going to Cannon Street is to stay in deep tunnel, cross
the river, go to underground platforms at London Bridge, and then surface
onto the appropriate tracks east of the station, bypassing Cannon Street
and its spur altogether. Although if you're going to do this, you might as
well take the tunnel west and do something more interesting ...

tom

[1] http://www.the-river-thames.co.uk/bridgeheights.htm

--
Hawaii may be many things, but it is not the sort of place you go to
for smart, sexy, geeky women. It's more the place for luau excess,
non-literate arts, and maritime athleticism. -- applez

Tom Anderson wrote:

Cannon Street bridge is 7.1 metres above the high water level of the
Thames [1], perhaps less at the ends. The rail deck will be a little
above that - not more than 9 metres, and probably less. It's about
260 metres from the point where the bridge makes landfall to Cannon
Street itself, where the space occupied by the station ends (ish). If
you hollowed out the existing station and put in a downward-sloping
track at a gradient of 1:30 (generally considered the practical
maximum, i think), you could drop 8.5 metres in that distance, leaving you
at about the level of the
river. You need about four metres over the top of the track for the
train (six if you want OHLE, which we don't). If Cannon Street is
four metres or more above the level of the river, this idea is just
about plausible - at least this far!

In terms of getting to Moorgate, you're then alright, as you have
about 650 metres to run, in which space you can dive another 20
metres, which i think is enough.

You would need to have flat platforms under Walbrook, to replace Cannon
Street Station.

"lonelytraveller" wrote in
message ups.com...
On 8 Oct, 23:13, MIG wrote:
On Oct 8, 10:25 pm, "Paul Scott"
The only remaining possibility would be to start tunnelling south of
the Thames and replace London Bridge and Cannon Street with new
underground stations. It could be called Crosslink or Thamesrail or
something.

Oddly enough, one of the Thameslink 2000 route options was a huge
tunnel under the Thames from just east of London Bridge to Farringdon.
It would have been enormously expensive, and got in the way of the
foundations for the Shard.


The Government couldn't scrape £350M together, a mere 2%, to finish
Crossrail so something like this wouldn't stand a snowball in hells chance
of seeing the light of day.

Kevin