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Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it,
an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Steve Dulieu wrote:
Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:03:19 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. Your anti-spam message never seemed so appropriate :-) |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Richard J." wrote in message .uk... Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? All the way to WJ the TFL wage slaves will not have to pay! -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Richard J." wrote in message .uk... Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern services? I don't remember this being discussed before, but it'll have to be done quickly, cos LU ticketing and Oyster PAYG is due there next month... Paul S |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:03:48 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote: "Richard J." wrote in message o.uk... Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? All the way to WJ the TFL wage slaves will not have to pay! To be fair all TfL staff passes are already valid to Watford Junction so it isn't an increase in validity. The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:03:48 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: "Richard J." wrote in message . co.uk... Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? All the way to WJ the TFL wage slaves will not have to pay! To be fair all TfL staff passes are already valid to Watford Junction so it isn't an increase in validity. The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:03:48 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: "Richard J." wrote in message .co.uk... Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? All the way to WJ the TFL wage slaves will not have to pay! To be fair all TfL staff passes are already valid to Watford Junction so it isn't an increase in validity. The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is extended over the routes. In another place someone has posed the question concerning validity on Southern's services on the WLL / NLL (Clapham - Harrow). That has not been mentioned in the TfL announcement so the new validity may be confined to Overground services. If that's the case then any ELLX validity beyond the New Crosses would, I assume, only be on Overground trains to Croydon / Crystal Palace. The other final issue is whether anything is done to allow a wider set of concessions for NR and TfL staff using the concept of the Oyster PTAC card and reduced rate travel on services that are not free. When Smartcards are extended to NR it would be easy to offer such a facility as TfL has done on the LU network. Whether there will be an industry appetite to provide a more generous concession (for joiners post 1996) remains to be seen. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Richard J." wrote: Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern services? I don't remember this being discussed before, but it'll have to be done quickly, cos LU ticketing and Oyster PAYG is due there next month... Paul S It has been discussed before here, but quite a while back, and it was just people speculating about what will happen. Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. It would be a bit confusing situation for passengers for Oyster PAYG to be valid from Watford Junction only on the stopping service - especially as Oyster PAYG is valid on both the fasts and the stoppers between H&W and Euston - but I can see that London Midland* might not be too happy at this loss of control and possibly revenue that might entail from accepting Oyster PAYG on their WJ to Euston fasts. So passengers at Watford Junction might end up with a two-tiered fare structure. I await developments on this with interest. ----- * London Midland being the new Govia-owned TOC that takes over the Silverlink County (i.e. fast WCML) services from 11 November. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Richard J." wrote: Steve Dulieu wrote: Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End? Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern services? Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote:
Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on Overground services out there. but I can see that London Midland* might not be too happy at this loss of control and possibly revenue that might entail from accepting Oyster PAYG on their WJ to Euston fasts. The franchise spec requires them to be accepted within Zones 1-6. It appears to up to London Midland whether to accept them out to Watford Junction, and there hasn't been any word from them. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 12:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote: On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote: (snip) Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern services? Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. -- Paul C Thanks - as you say we shall see what is to happen shortly. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote: On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Richard J." wrote: Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern services? Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case? Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down restrictions... Paul |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Mr Thant wrote:
On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote: Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on Overground services out there. That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything shown on it as gospel. Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London Overground services) in zone A would make sense. but I can see that London Midland* might not be too happy at this loss of control and possibly revenue that might entail from accepting Oyster PAYG on their WJ to Euston fasts. The franchise spec requires them to be accepted within Zones 1-6. It appears to up to London Midland whether to accept them out to Watford Junction, and there hasn't been any word from them. U In that case the franchise specification for London Midland merely appears to set in stone the existing situation - that Oyster PAYG is accepted on fast trains between H&W and Euston (and has been since, I think, Oyster PAYG was first introduced on LU). I guess it does also cover the situation that should London Midland wish to stop their trains at Queen's Park as well, then they'd also have to accept Oyster PAYG for journeys to/from there to/from Euston or H&W. But I don't think they'd have any desire to stop at Queen's Park though. I can now increasingly foresee a situation where Oyster PAYG will only available on the London Overground stoppers from Watford Junction, and not the London Midland fasts. We shall see what transpires. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message (snip) Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case? Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down restrictions... Paul Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though. I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at all well to Oyster PAYG. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Mizter T" wrote in message oups.com... On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message (snip) Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case? Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down restrictions... Paul Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though. I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at all well to Oyster PAYG. But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is part of the system? Paul S |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 13:20, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message (snip) Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case? Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down restrictions... Paul Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though. I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at all well to Oyster PAYG. But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is part of the system? Paul S Yes - Oyster PAYG is indeed already available on Chiltern from Amersham, which mirrors the situation with paper tickets where LU & NR tickets are interavailable on this route. However Chiltern's Marylebone ticket office is the only place where Chiltern might take money off a passenger to add to an Oyster card for PAYG use (and I'm not 100% certain that the Marylebone ticket office deals in Oyster either - they could just send you across the concourse to the LU ticket office). To be honest I've no idea how the Oyster PAYG monies gets divided up when it comes to Chiltern and LU. If one bears in mind that Oyster PAYG is also valid from West/South Ruislip to Marylebone, wheras paper tickets are not (i.e. there is no conventional interavailability of ticketing on this route), this would suggest that Chiltern and LU have a more complicated arrangement in place - though whether it deals with ticketing as a whole, or just Oyster PAYG, I have no idea. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Mizter T wrote:
Mr Thant wrote: On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote: Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on Overground services out there. That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything shown on it as gospel. Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London Overground services) in zone A would make sense. I came to think about an interesting phenomenon with travelcard prices here. If WJ will join zone A, then Z1-6D travelcards would be accepted there. Such Network Railcard discounted off-peak travelcards bought from LUL ticket offices (or from NR ticket offices in zone A-D I think) cost £4.80. Today a railcard discounted off-peak travelcard WJ to Z1-6 costs £8.25. It would not surprise me if there will be some special restrictions or something for using such cheap Z1-6D travelcards from/to WJ. -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 14:19, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Mizter T wrote: Mr Thant wrote: On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote: Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End (the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet. The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on Overground services out there. That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything shown on it as gospel. Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London Overground services) in zone A would make sense. I came to think about an interesting phenomenon with travelcard prices here. If WJ will join zone A, then Z1-6D travelcards would be accepted there. Such Network Railcard discounted off-peak travelcards bought from LUL ticket offices (or from NR ticket offices in zone A-D I think) cost £4.80. Today a railcard discounted off-peak travelcard WJ to Z1-6 costs £8.25. It would not surprise me if there will be some special restrictions or something for using such cheap Z1-6D travelcards from/to WJ. A very good point. Note however there are no NR ticket offices in zones A-D (at least at the moment). At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A - there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside of the zonal system altogether. If that is the case then of course it'll be interesting to see how Oyster PAYG journeys are charged to/ from/between WJ/Watford High St/ Bushey/ Carpenders Park, and whether several journeys made to/from/between these stations would be capped. The simplest approach might simply be to charge a flat fare (of say £1) for all Oyster PAYG journeys on this line that start/end outside the zones (i.e. north of Hatch End). |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:20:58 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Mizter T" wrote in message roups.com... On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message (snip) Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and see. You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case? Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down restrictions... Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though. I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at all well to Oyster PAYG. But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is part of the system? I'm not close to the detail on all of this these days but I would guess it works as you suggest. Where Oyster PAYG is used on a shared section like Harrow to Chorleywood it is impossible to detect what train was used. Therefore whatever the apportionment rules are for cash tickets would apply to PAYG revenues. I can't see someone sitting down trying to link the entry and exit times from card data to the most likely or actual train departure / arrivals. Too much work for too little benefit. Where PAYG data allows unequivocal decisions to be taken on what company was used (as in Chiltern trains to and from Marylebone) then I would expect the money would go the operator via the settlement process. The only other comment to make is that all the above is fine and dandy but who knows what impact ticketing history may have. On the Watford Junction issue I doubt very much that London Midland will voluntarily decide to accept PAYG to Watford Junction. However any restriction will be extremely difficult to police given the interavailability to Harrow and Wealdstone and the complete lack of separation of platforms, exits and gatelines at Watford and Euston. If, as Mr Thant says, stations north of the zone boundary are in Zone A then the compromise is to set a fare value in that instance at a level that London Midland can live with and which is acceptable to TfL. There will probably be an element of "suck it and see" initially and once the usage and revenue data stabilises then a more robust settlement position will be put in place. The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes. The same issues might arise at Watford Junction with much bigger implications for NR pricing. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:
At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A - there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside of the zonal system altogether. "The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction." http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...C-response.pdf So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional map is accurate. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant
wrote: On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote: At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A - there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside of the zonal system altogether. "The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction. "http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises... So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional map is accurate. U Interesting, thanks for that. I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all! I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from Watford to central London. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote in : On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is extended over the routes. Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? -- Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
wrote: On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote in : On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is extended over the routes. Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? I didn't and it wasn't my intention. Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? No idea. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant wrote: On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote: At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A - there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside of the zonal system altogether. "The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction. "http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises... So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional map is accurate. U Interesting, thanks for that. I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all! I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from Watford to central London. It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both franchises. Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can 'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the actual train taken. I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway. Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to make up their revenue loss. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote in : On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at Blackhorse Road! And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is extended over the routes. Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? Are we all invited? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 13 Oct, 19:56, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid" wrote: On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:: On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL... I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is extended over the routes. Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? I didn't and it wasn't my intention. As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work for a transport organisation to get free travel on that organisation's services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect someone who works for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate subscription or someone who works for a retailer to get discounts etc. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in : Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? Are we all invited? If you read the right newsgroup... -- Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty". |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Andy wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote: On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant wrote: On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote: At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A - there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside of the zonal system altogether. "The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction. "http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises... So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional map is accurate. U Interesting, thanks for that. I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all! I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from Watford to central London. It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both franchises. I did forget about the fast trains that stop at Bushey! Thanks for the reminder. That puts Bushey in the same situation as Watford Junction with regards to whether the London Midland fast trains will accept Oyster PAYG then. Out of interest does Bushey have ticket gates installed? I never knew about the fast (Silverlink County) trains that call at Wembley Central in the dead of night. Having just looked at Table 66 of the timetable I find that they stop at these times: To Euston: M-F 0054, 0421; Sat 0054, 0435, 0530; Sun 0315 ex Euston: M-F 0045, 0147; Sat 0145, 0211; none on sunday (destination being Northampton or MK Central) How interesting, I wonder what the logic is behind these stops - perhaps to provide a means of travel to railway staff who work at the nearby Wembley depots? As you say, if London Midland opts in to Oyster PAYG then Oyster readers would have to be provided at the entrance to the mainline platforms at Wembley Central to cater for these trains as well I guess (unless they were somehow excepted from Oyster PAYG acceptance). And then, as you say, there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster PAYG from WJ to Wembley Central. Indeed there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster PAYG from Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia to consider as well given that LO will accept it on their WLL services from these stations. There's also the issue of the mass confusion that'll occur at Clapham Junction as lots of pax erroneously use Oyster PAYG to get through the barriers when only one service from CJ will actually be accepting Oyster PAYG (the LO service up the WLL to Willesden Jn). One solution might be what they've done at London Bridge, where Oyster PAYG is accepted on FCC/Thameslink only but doesn't operate the gates - passengers have to be let through the manual side gate by staff and touch-in/out on an Oyster reader on the platform (though the number of pax actually using Oyster PAYG at London Bridge must be very small given that most would use the faster Northern line to reach points north instead). Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can 'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the actual train taken. Given that, north of Queens Park, traditionally it was BR/NR that set the fares (I think this dates from when LNWR opened the 'New Lines' aka the 'DC lines' from Euston to Watford Junction) I don't think TfL has any power to force acceptance of its tickets from Watford Junction on the fast London Midland trains. As Paul Corfield has pointed out it will be difficult to enforce a situation where Oyster PAYG is only accepted on LO trains and not fast London Midland trains, given that passengers for both services will pass through exactly the same gatelines at both WJ and Euston. I guess there could be a copycat implementation of the far less than ideal situation I described at London Bridge, and so Oyster PAYG wouldn't operate the gates at WJ and pax using PAYG have to pass through the side gate and touch-in/out on a reader on the platform. I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway. Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to make up their revenue loss. The question in my mind is whether any premium demanded by London Midland/Govia from TfL could be accommodated if TfL were to include WJ in zone A. It's obviously be a cleaner, simpler and far preferable situation (at least from the point of pax) if WJ were to become part of zone A - but perhaps the premium demanded by London Midland would make it uneconomic for TfL to do this and absorb the financial hit rather than passing it on to passengers who used WJ. Another question in my mind is how many pax who currently use the Met line from Watford into central London, because it is cheaper than travelling via WJ - would then switch to travelling from WJ to take advantage of the fast trains? This might lead to overcrowding on the fast trains from WJ, something that London Midland might be wary of. Perhaps there's not that many price conscious passengers who'd do this, though there could be a whole load more travelling via WJ if and when the Met line's Croxley link gets built (the link that would divert the Met line's Watford branch directly into Watford Junction). |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Oct 14, 11:24 am, Mizter T wrote:
Andy wrote: On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both franchises. I did forget about the fast trains that stop at Bushey! Thanks for the reminder. That puts Bushey in the same situation as Watford Junction with regards to whether the London Midland fast trains will accept Oyster PAYG then. Out of interest does Bushey have ticket gates installed? I never knew about the fast (Silverlink County) trains that call at Wembley Central in the dead of night. Having just looked at Table 66 of the timetable I find that they stop at these times: To Euston: M-F 0054, 0421; Sat 0054, 0435, 0530; Sun 0315 ex Euston: M-F 0045, 0147; Sat 0145, 0211; none on sunday (destination being Northampton or MK Central) How interesting, I wonder what the logic is behind these stops - perhaps to provide a means of travel to railway staff who work at the nearby Wembley depots? I think that is probably the reason. I think they originally also provided a later service to all the possible stations on the DC Lines. When I've used the trains, they've also stopped at Queen's Park, providing that the main line platforms (only two, on the slow tracks) are not closed due to engineering work (the engineering work being the reason that the QP stop isn't advertised and meaning that busses don't need to be provided). This was a few years ago though. As you say, if London Midland opts in to Oyster PAYG then Oyster readers would have to be provided at the entrance to the mainline platforms at Wembley Central to cater for these trains as well I guess (unless they were somehow excepted from Oyster PAYG acceptance). They will also need to be provided, if not already the case, as the eastern entrance to Harrow and Wealdstone. I spent ages trying to find the Oyster readers coming back from Harrow, only to find that they are only on Platforms 1/2 (DC lines) and on the bridge. Pay as you go is valid on the fast trains, but Silverlink don't make it easy to use!! And then, as you say, there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster PAYG from WJ to Wembley Central. Indeed there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster PAYG from Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia to consider as well given that LO will accept it on their WLL services from these stations. I'd forgotten about LO taking over the majority of the trains on the WLL line. There's also the issue of the mass confusion that'll occur at Clapham Junction as lots of pax erroneously use Oyster PAYG to get through the barriers when only one service from CJ will actually be accepting Oyster PAYG (the LO service up the WLL to Willesden Jn). One solution might be what they've done at London Bridge, where Oyster PAYG is accepted on FCC/Thameslink only but doesn't operate the gates - passengers have to be let through the manual side gate by staff and touch-in/out on an Oyster reader on the platform (though the number of pax actually using Oyster PAYG at London Bridge must be very small given that most would use the faster Northern line to reach points north instead). If this is to be the case, then why have they bothered to fit the oyster readers to all of the gates at Watford Junction. If Govia doesn't have to accept Oyster and if all the LO passengers have to go via the side gate there would be little need for the automatic gates to be covered. If it is to cover season ticket holders, then this would imply that Watford Junction Travelcard seasons will be available on Oyster, unlike at present. Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can 'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the actual train taken. Given that, north of Queens Park, traditionally it was BR/NR that set the fares (I think this dates from when LNWR opened the 'New Lines' aka the 'DC lines' from Euston to Watford Junction) I don't think TfL has any power to force acceptance of its tickets from Watford Junction on the fast London Midland trains. Well, at the moment, PAYG is valid on the fast trains from Euston to Harrow, as well as the DC lines, so a precedent of sorts has been set. Remember, Silverlink didn't have to extend PAYG even to the DC trains south of Queens Park, but they have done so. As Paul Corfield has pointed out it will be difficult to enforce a situation where Oyster PAYG is only accepted on LO trains and not fast London Midland trains, given that passengers for both services will pass through exactly the same gatelines at both WJ and Euston. I guess there could be a copycat implementation of the far less than ideal situation I described at London Bridge, and so Oyster PAYG wouldn't operate the gates at WJ and pax using PAYG have to pass through the side gate and touch-in/out on a reader on the platform. Personally I think that this is unworkable. There are only four gates and a small manual one at Watford Junction. There is nearly always a queue here of passengers with fares to pay, especially when the Abbey flyer has just arrived. I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway. Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to make up their revenue loss. The question in my mind is whether any premium demanded by London Midland/Govia from TfL could be accommodated if TfL were to include WJ in zone A. Maybe we will end up with the compromise Zone being B or C in order to gain for cash from the passengers. Bushey maybe being in Zone A It's obviously be a cleaner, simpler and far preferable situation (at least from the point of pax) if WJ were to become part of zone A - but perhaps the premium demanded by London Midland would make it uneconomic for TfL to do this and absorb the financial hit rather than passing it on to passengers who used WJ. It would certainly be easier, but I wonder if the arrangement will be more like the 'special' zone for Tramlink, with a higher fare from boundary Zone 6 to Zone W (for Watford) than to Zone A Another question in my mind is how many pax who currently use the Met line from Watford into central London, because it is cheaper than travelling via WJ - would then switch to travelling from WJ to take advantage of the fast trains? This might lead to overcrowding on the fast trains from WJ, something that London Midland might be wary of. Perhaps there's not that many price conscious passengers who'd do this, though there could be a whole load more travelling via WJ if and when the Met line's Croxley link gets built (the link that would divert the Met line's Watford branch directly into Watford Junction). At the moment, I doubt that there would be many passengers switching from the Met to the mainline. The time penalty of getting to the Junction from the Met station would be too great. (Stations are a good 15-20 mins walk apart and parking is expensive at Watford Junction). I doubt that many commuters use the Met station to central London, although I don't have stats to hand. When (if) the Croxley link gets built, the balance might, of course, change. With commuters using the link to go via Watford Junction, rather than sitting on the Met line. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J. wrote in : Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? Are we all invited? If you read the right newsgroup... Ivan, you do realise that this comes over to readers of this newsgroup as gloating? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:13:10 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in : Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J. wrote in : Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote: Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax as gloating? Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night? Are we all invited? If you read the right newsgroup... Ivan, you do realise that this comes over to readers of this newsgroup as gloating? Touché! -- Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty". |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
"Mizter T" wrote in message oups.com... As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work for a transport organisation to get free travel on that organisation's services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect someone who works for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate subscription or someone who works for a retailer to get discounts etc. Free ... discount ... discount Doesn't seem to be the same to me. Not that I mind TfL staff travelling free; compared to the cost of the Oyster bribery fares it's a raindrop in the ocean of subsidy of London's public transport. Dave. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Dave Liney wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message oups.com... As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work for a transport organisation to get free travel on that organisation's services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect someone who works for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate subscription or someone who works for a retailer to get discounts etc. Free ... discount ... discount Doesn't seem to be the same to me. Not that I mind TfL staff travelling free; compared to the cost of the Oyster bribery fares it's a raindrop in the ocean of subsidy of London's public transport. What are you talking about? London has probably the least subsidised public transport of any comparable capital city. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes. This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch End). |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
Steve Dulieu wrote:
Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-) On a similar, but not quite as "generous" note, the November 2006 edition of the Travel Facilities Guide for Safeguarded Active and Retired TOC Employees (i.e. those who were employed prior to 1st April 1996), features a list of sections of LU/DLR where staff can use a box or status pass for free travel. It's mostly the usual interavailable routes, but here's the full list, as given in the Guide: quote *Metropolitan and District Lines:* (i) Moorgate and Kings Cross; (ii) Baker Street and Watford, Chesham or Amersham, but not intermediately between Baker Street and Harrow-on-the-Hill; (iii) Paddington and Notting Hill Gate - Circle Line, for through journeys between Paddington and East Acton or westwards but not intermediately or at Notting Hill Gate; (iv) Paddington (Suburban) and Hammersmith (Met.); (v) Shoreditch and New Cross or New Cross Gate; (vi) Tower Hill and Upminster (except Aldgate East); (vii) Putney Bridge and Wimbledon; (viii) Turnham Green and Richmond; (ix) Earl's Court and Kensington (Olympia). *Northern Line:* Moorgate to Mill Hill East or High Barnet via Archway, but not intermediately Kings Cross to Highgate, except Kentish Town *Central Line:* (i) Liverpool Street and Epping or Hainault, via Woodford or Newbury Park; (ii) Ealing Broadway or West Ruislip and White City and in the case of through journeys between East Acton or westwards and Paddington also between White City and Notting Hill Gate, but not intermediately between White City and Notting Hill Gate or at Notting Hill Gate. *Bakerloo Line:* Paddington and Harrow & Wealdstone *Jubilee Line:* Stratford to Canning Town *Piccadilly Line:* Finsbury Park and Kings Cross but not intermediately. *Victoria Line:* Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross. *Waterloo and City:* Waterloo and Bank. *Docklands Light Railway:* Tower Gateway and Limehouse. In addition, Residential Passes (made out with the appropriate availability) are valid on the above lines with the exception of: *Hammersmith & City Line:* Valid only between Paddington (Suburban) and Westbourne Park and not valid at Royal Oak. *District Line:* Valid between Tower Hill and Upminster but not intermediately between Tower Hill and Bow Road, except at Aldgate East when shown on the pass. *Northern Line:* Not valid between Moorgate and Kings Cross or Kentish Town *Central Line:* Not valid at Bethnal Green or Mile End or between Ealing Broadway and North Acton /quote Cheers, Barry |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 14 Oct, 22:27, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes. This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch End). Yeah - I noticed that earlier today when looking at the PDF of the current fares booklet [1] and compared it to the 2006 one. This and other things all demonstrate that Silverlink Metro has increasingly fallen under the influence of TfL in the period before they take over - a bit like how Hong Kong was falling under the influence of the PRC whilst the power of the British Governor waned before the official handover date. Not, that is to say, that TfL is like the PRC... I've gifted that one to critics of Mayor Ken really haven't I ?! Back on topic, I wanted to look and see whether there were any fares anomalies on this route - e.g. a H&W to Euston fare costing less than a Kenton to Euston fare - but I've already run into problems with conflicting information. The NR Journey Planner suggests an SDS would be £3.80, TheTrainline shows two SDS results at £3.80 and £4, whilst the Avantix Traveller software shows it as £4. Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any London zonal rail fare. But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40. Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be £8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is £3. Looking at the Kilburn High Road to Euston fares Avantix, NR JP and Trainline all agree again on this - an SDS is £2.40 and a CDR is £3.40 (same as the Queens Park to Euston CDR). But again neither of these fares is what it should be under the London zonal rail fares table - a zones 1+2 SDS should be £2.10, a CDR £3. All of which leaves me scratching my head in a state of total confusion and wondering just what possible logic is being applied to generate these fares, and also - given the different results for the H&W fare - wondering whether I can trust any of the information I get from any of these sources! ----- [1] TfL Fares and Tickets 2007 (PDF) http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and- tickets-0709.pdf [2] National Rail - London Zonal Fares http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote:
Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any London zonal rail fare. From [2]: ''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change." But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40. Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be £8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is £3. You might want to look at this thread I started: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....1f26b9ff027f3a Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink, and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves, for no obvious reason. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 15 Oct, 01:26, Mr Thant
wrote: On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote: Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any London zonal rail fare. From [2]: ''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change." Thanks - yes, it would help if I read the documents that I referred to! The fact that the LU fare now takes predominance is I think a fairly new development - this post of mine from 2005 shows there was a bit of a messy situation at Walthamstow Central when it came to fares (a situation that I strongly suspect was mirrored at Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale): http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....cfe556118559f4 Such situations don't appear to exist anymore as LU fares now rule the roost. Can anyone say exactly since when this has been the case? Also from that page, in fact just above the text you quoted is this: ----- What Train Companies will be covered by this change? All Train companies operating National Rail services that stop between any two stations in the London Fare Zones area will offer these fares. They a- Chiltern Railways; c2c; First Capital Connect; First Great Western; Heathrow Connect; 'one' Railway; Silverlink County; Southern; Southeastern; South West Trains. ----- Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable by its absence... But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40. Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be £8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is £3. You might want to look at this thread I started: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_thread/th... Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink, and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves, for no obvious reason. U Thanks, that at least clears up a little bit of the mystery! I just wonder whether it's some incredibly complex attempt to mesh LU fares into the Silverlink Metro fare scale. Though of course that doesn't really make a lot of sense either, given that all LU cash fares are now either £3 or £4. Perhaps these Silverlink Metro fares are merely the same as they were (perhaps plus a bit for inflation) before January '07, when London zonal rail fares were introduced. As you say, it's all a bit inexplicable really. I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were to happen. Change of subject (sort-of) - I have an intriguing scenario to share with you all regarding Oyster PAYG fares on the North London Line, but that will have to wait for another day. |
Yipee! increased TFL staff pass validity.
On 15 Oct, 02:17, Mizter T wrote:
Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable by its absence... It wasn't until somebody complained... I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were to happen. There's a note on this in the last board meeting minutes: "TfL London Rail and TfL Fares and Ticketing are considering how best to integrate Overground fares into the TfL fares structure from 11 November, the start of the London Rail Concession. An Oyster promotional fare is proposed, designed to get passengers used to Oyster Pay As You Go on a National Rail service that previously did not accept this form of payment prior to 11 November." http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-papers(1).pdf Hopefully we'll get some more detail from the next meeting, which is next week. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
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