On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

--
jhk

In message of Wed, 21 Nov
2007 13:13:39 in uk.transport.london, Jarle H Knudsen
writes
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."


Interesting! "Conditions of Carriage" is more authoritative.
I suggest someone who cares may want to raise the matter at
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/contact/default.asp?type=tfl which is
usefully accessed from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/default.aspx.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:13:39 +0100, Jarle H Knudsen
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

Robin

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:33 +0000, "R.C. Payne"
wrote:
Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

I wonder whether the Anglo-Saxon (as they say in France) way of doing
it isn't in fact *more* common throughout Europe.

It's certainly the case on buses everywhere I've been in Spain,
Portugal, Belgium and is becoming the norm again in France, thanks to
anti-social types.

Some places (Paris) make an exception and allow boarding anywhere on
bendies, some (Barcelona) make you get on at the front.

Some places tolerate you getting off at the front but try to put you
off the idea, some won't let you at all.

Some Teutonic places allow boarding anywhere except after some time in
the evening (2000, 2100) after which you have to get on at the front.
Although there are a lot of options, I'd pick this one as the most
sensible for London's artics, at least outside the central area. Maybe
with a few hundred thousand new revenue inspectors it could be
extended to other buses as well...

As I've drifted off-topic a bit, I'd support Neil's idea that
wheelchairs and prams (detest the "B" word!) get on in the middle for
easy access to the open space, and with a proper middle pole at the
front doors and seats right at the front for people with other
mobility difficulties.

Richard.

"Richard" wrote in message
...

I wonder whether the Anglo-Saxon (as they say in France) way of doing
it isn't in fact *more* common throughout Europe.

It's certainly the case on buses everywhere I've been in Spain,
Portugal, Belgium and is becoming the norm again in France, thanks to
anti-social types.

Some places (Paris) make an exception and allow boarding anywhere on
bendies, some (Barcelona) make you get on at the front.

Some places tolerate you getting off at the front but try to put you
off the idea, some won't let you at all.

Some Teutonic places allow boarding anywhere except after some time in
the evening (2000, 2100) after which you have to get on at the front.
Although there are a lot of options, I'd pick this one as the most
sensible for London's artics, at least outside the central area. Maybe
with a few hundred thousand new revenue inspectors it could be
extended to other buses as well...


You have to board some Amsterdam trams at the middle or rear doors, as I
recall.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:21:36 GMT, wrote:

You have to board some Amsterdam trams at the middle or rear doors, as I
recall.

Front and middle. It was due to large-scale fare evasion. What they
did, rather curiously, was to build a conductor's office by the middle
doors.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:33 +0000, "R.C. Payne"
wrote:

Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada.

I didn't mean that, I meant the practice throughout the UK (other than
London) of having only one door, it being used for both boarding and
alighting. It is a stupid practice that I don't think I've seen
anywhere outside the UK. Even German minibuses have two sets of
doors.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Here in Birmingham (where all buses have manually operated ramps),
passengers tend to be very centralised in their destinations. Between
my house and the centre (about 30 stops), only about 2 of those are
major points for getting off. In the city centre, everyone gets on and
off at one stop*. Therefore, the bus is pretty much like a bucket
filling up with water, and emptying at the last minute. If two doors
are provided, the chances are loading/unloading times will not be
increased.

In London on the other hand, I can picture buses being a bucket of
water with a hole in the bottom. Passengers will get on everywhere,
and off everywhere (tube stations, railway stations, bus interchanges,
etc). Therefore it helps to have the extra door to improve efficiency.
London is very decentralised, Birmingham is not, therefore those extra
6 seats that we can fit in on our Birmingham buses are more cost
effective than an extra door.

(*Timing point so buses tend to wait for a while anyway.)