On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

Yes but there's multiple routes in both directions with Dorking (or
a run on to Horsham) and Guildford (sometimes stopping short at
Effingham Junction) the country terminals for the various services
and very flexible route combinations - for instance I've only seen
a Crystal Palace to Epsom through service in the late evening.

Hang on, i'm colouring by terminal at the London end. I'm not quite
sure i've got what you mean; i'm not very familiar with the trains
that far out (which won't be on my map, incidentally!).

Ah - I was thinking of the lines on the London Connections map which
goes slightly further out.

Could you expand on the cases which you think present difficulties?

A lot of the Southern routes are rather complicated to map because
there are many different combinations of routes and terminals
available, with several points where lines diverge and rejoin, with
some particular through services and destinations only running at
peak hours or late hours and so forth.

Very true. The gain by having the lines coloured by terminus would seem
to be outweighed by the confusion caused by multiple colours through
many stations.

I don't think so. There aren't many cases where this applies, and where it
does, it's no more complicated than the cases on the tube map, which
people don't seem to have any trouble with.

Why not just colour by TOC?

Because (a) that's of no actual use to anybody and (b) it doesn't solve
the problem, as there are still multicoloured lines.

Isn't the National Rail version of the London Connections map done like
that already?

Yes.

tom

--
If a scientist were to cut his ear off, no one would take it as evidence
of heightened sensibility -- Peter Medawar

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, solar penguin wrote:


On 26 Nov, 02:22, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

And how would you handle Victoria-London Bridge services?

This is a tough one. The two best options i've come up with are to colour
it as an orbital route and to draw it as two lines, one in Victoria colour
and one in London Bridge colour. The latter is unwieldy but does convey
the information; the former is simpler but confusing.

Good point. The off-peak Victoria-London Bridge service via Crystal
Palace can become a London Bridge-London Bridge service in the rush-
hours. How would that be shown on the map?

And it doesn't run at all on Sundays. How would the map cope with that?

The same way it deals with other cases of services varying over time - by
not showing it. Or, if someone find the energy, with an annotation, a
dagger mark, or a dashed section of line.

tom

--
If a scientist were to cut his ear off, no one would take it as evidence
of heightened sensibility -- Peter Medawar

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Yes but there's multiple routes in both directions with Dorking (or a run
on to Horsham) and Guildford (sometimes stopping short at Effingham
Junction) the country terminals for the various services and very
flexible route combinations - for instance I've only seen a Crystal
Palace to Epsom through service in the late evening.

Hang on, i'm colouring by terminal at the London end. I'm not quite sure
i've got what you mean; i'm not very familiar with the trains that far out
(which won't be on my map, incidentally!).

Ah - I was thinking of the lines on the London Connections map

That's what i'm using.

which goes slightly further out.

Not to Dorking and Guildford it doesn't. Perhaps i misunderstood, sorry.

Could you expand on the cases which you think present difficulties?

A lot of the Southern routes are rather complicated to map because there
are many different combinations of routes and terminals available, with
several points where lines diverge and rejoin,

Denoted by having lines on the map diverge and rejoin.

with some particular through services and destinations only running at
peak hours or late hours and so forth.

Handled as on the tube map, and not shown, or shown with annotations,
daggers and dashed lines.

For instance trains from Epsom Downs can run to either Victoria or
London Bridge, with virtually all routes (via Carshalton, Selhurst and
Crystal Palace) shared with routes that lead to London Bridge.
Historically Epsom Downs has tended to be served directly by only one
London terminal but this has changed from time to time.

Quite a bit of the central section of the Southern network will be
two-colour, it's true.

Then there's the problem of fast and stopping services over a section of
track that run to different terminals.

Handled as for the Metropolitan line, and not shown, or as for the
combination of Met and Jubilee, and done with station ticks on the
stopping line but not the fast line.

I'm not sure how a map could be simply coloured by London terminal
destinations without descending into trying to map the various
combinations to give a clear idea as to what actually goes where.

By colouring each line according to the terminus it goes to, drawing
multiple parallel lines where necessary, and not trying to do anything
cleverer than that.

And how would you handle Victoria-London Bridge services?

See other post!

tom

--
If a scientist were to cut his ear off, no one would take it as evidence
of heightened sensibility -- Peter Medawar

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

Yes but there's multiple routes in both directions with Dorking
(or a run on to Horsham) and Guildford (sometimes stopping short
at Effingham Junction) the country terminals for the various
services and very flexible route combinations - for instance I've
only seen a Crystal Palace to Epsom through service in the late
evening.

Hang on, i'm colouring by terminal at the London end. I'm not quite
sure i've got what you mean; i'm not very familiar with the trains
that far out (which won't be on my map, incidentally!).

Ah - I was thinking of the lines on the London Connections map which
goes slightly further out.

Could you expand on the cases which you think present difficulties?

A lot of the Southern routes are rather complicated to map because
there are many different combinations of routes and terminals
available, with several points where lines diverge and rejoin, with
some particular through services and destinations only running at
peak hours or late hours and so forth.

Very true. The gain by having the lines coloured by terminus would
seem to be outweighed by the confusion caused by multiple colours
through many stations.

I don't think so. There aren't many cases where this applies, and
where it does, it's no more complicated than the cases on the tube
map, which people don't seem to have any trouble with.

Did you actually read the para three levels above here? ("A lot of the
Southern routes ...")

Why not just colour by TOC?

Because (a) that's of no actual use to anybody and (b) it doesn't
solve the problem, as there are still multicoloured lines.

If you're trying to avoid multicoloured lines, you might as well have one
colour for Waterloo and another colour for the rest. I feel that the
"problem" you're trying to solve and the criteria for a successful solution
are both ill-defined. Similar situations in government have wasted
billions. Hope you've got plenty of spare cash!
:-)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

Yes but there's multiple routes in both directions with Dorking
(or a run on to Horsham) and Guildford (sometimes stopping short
at Effingham Junction) the country terminals for the various
services and very flexible route combinations - for instance I've
only seen a Crystal Palace to Epsom through service in the late
evening.

Could you expand on the cases which you think present difficulties?

A lot of the Southern routes are rather complicated to map because
there are many different combinations of routes and terminals
available, with several points where lines diverge and rejoin, with
some particular through services and destinations only running at
peak hours or late hours and so forth.

Very true. The gain by having the lines coloured by terminus would
seem to be outweighed by the confusion caused by multiple colours
through many stations.

I don't think so. There aren't many cases where this applies, and
where it does, it's no more complicated than the cases on the tube
map, which people don't seem to have any trouble with.

Did you actually read the para three levels above here? ("A lot of the
Southern routes ...")

Yes. What i'm saying is that when i went through route maps a while ago,
my conclusion was that it wasn't a big problem.

Why not just colour by TOC?

Because (a) that's of no actual use to anybody and (b) it doesn't
solve the problem, as there are still multicoloured lines.

If you're trying to avoid multicoloured lines,

Aargh! I'm not! That was what YOU were trying to do! I am ALL IN FAVOUR OF
MULTICOLOURED LINES!

you might as well have one colour for Waterloo and another colour for
the rest. I feel that the "problem" you're trying to solve and the
criteria for a successful solution are both ill-defined.

Problem: to draw a version of the London Connections map which gives a
clearer picture of the structure of the National Rail lines

Criteria: (a) does the map make it clear to which terminus trains from any
given station run (b) does the map make it clear by which route trains run
to their terminus from any given station?

I anticipate achieving the former completely, and making a good fist of
the latter - if it's as good as the way the existing London Connections
map deals with the District and Metropolitan lines (said map suggests you
can get trains from Amersham to Northwood and Richmond to Edgware Road),
i'll be happy.

How's that? My apologies if i didn't state this explicitly before.

Similar situations in government have wasted billions. Hope you've got
plenty of spare cash! :-)

If i manage to waste billions of pounds drawing a map, i'll certainly be
quite proud of myself.

tom

--
Wikipedia topics: lists of trains, Mortal Kombat characters, one-time
villains from Mario games, road intersections, boring suburban schools,
garage bands, cats, webcomics, Digimon, Bionicle characters, webforums,
characters from English soap operas, and Mortal Kombat characters that
don't exist -- Uncyclopedia

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...

Could you expand on the cases which you think present difficulties?

A lot of the Southern routes are rather complicated to map ......

........ I'm not
sure how a map could be simply coloured by London terminal destinations
without descending into trying to map the various combinations to give a
clear idea as to what actually goes where.

And how would you handle Victoria-London Bridge services?

Wait a while and don't attempt to draw the diagram until after the service
is binned as per the South London RUS and ELL Phase 2?

Paul S

On 26 Nov, 14:43, Tom Anderson wrote:
This is a tough one. The two best options i've come up with are to colour
it as an orbital route and to draw it as two lines, one in Victoria colour
and one in London Bridge colour. The latter is unwieldy but does convey
the information; the former is simpler but confusing.

I've shown you this here before, but the old Southern map does the
latter:
http://www.virtualportmeirion.com/network/largemap.htm

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On 26 Nov, 14:43, Tom Anderson wrote:

This is a tough one. The two best options i've come up with are to colour
it as an orbital route and to draw it as two lines, one in Victoria colour
and one in London Bridge colour. The latter is unwieldy but does convey
the information; the former is simpler but confusing.

I've shown you this here before, but the old Southern map does the
latter:
http://www.virtualportmeirion.com/network/largemap.htm

Ah yes. That doesn't look too bad, actually. At least for the inner SLL -
there's this outer SLL now too, CJ, Balham, Streatham Hill, Crystal
Palace, Sydenham, London Bridge; showing that on the old map would add a
black line from Clapham Junction to West Norwood ish, and a red line from
Crystal Palace up to London Bridge. On the plus side, my map would show
the line down through Brockley as one line, since i'm going to treat
Charing Cross and London Bridge as one.

tom

--
you can't feel your stomack with glory -- Czako

In message , Tom
Anderson writes
If i manage to waste billions of pounds drawing a map, i'll certainly
be quite proud of myself.
I remember looking at a bus map (not London) and each street had
coloured dots along it with the bus number inside each dot so you could
follow every route were ever it went and joined or left others covering
part of the same route. Does that sort of thing help?
--
Clive.

On 26 Nov, 20:13, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On 26 Nov, 14:43, Tom Anderson wrote:

This is a tough one. The two best options i've come up with are to colour
it as an orbital route and to draw it as two lines, one in Victoria colour
and one in London Bridge colour. The latter is unwieldy but does convey
the information; the former is simpler but confusing.

I've shown you this here before, but the old Southern map does the
latter:
http://www.virtualportmeirion.com/network/largemap.htm

Ah yes. That doesn't look too bad, actually. At least for the inner SLL -
there's this outer SLL now too, CJ, Balham, Streatham Hill, Crystal
Palace, Sydenham, London Bridge; showing that on the old map would add a
black line from Clapham Junction to West Norwood ish, and a red line from
Crystal Palace up to London Bridge. On the plus side, my map would show
the line down through Brockley as one line, since i'm going to treat
Charing Cross and London Bridge as one.

tom


Perhaps I'm wrong, but the designation "outer South London
Line" (Victoria - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace - LB) appears to
have been the creation of some Wikipedia contributors. I've never
heard or read the railways referring to that service by that name. The
South London Line in my mind has always been the Victoria - LB via
Peckham Rye service.

(Moving slightly off-topic...) Indeed the "South London Line" the
official designation of the actual running lines (i.e. the tracks)
until (I think) the late 80's when they were partially renamed the
"Atlantic Lines", when a junction went in between Peckham Rye and
Denmark Hill (Crofton Rd Jn) which allowed trains to switch over from
the Chatham lines.