National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On 24 Jan, 11:01, " wrote:
On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar

(snip)

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

I don't understand why there would be any change. Oyster's always been
valid to H&W on all trains.


As I describe elsewhere, the information at Harrow & Wealdstone
concerning Oyster validity is likely to be much clearer and more
prominent now than it was before London Overground launched in
November. The fact that Oyster PAYG was valid on the fast trains did
appear somewhat opaque in the days of Silverlink. However I can't
imagine that this makes a massive difference.


And since PAYG has been valid all the way to Watford Junction, it's
been much much cheaper[1] to travel after 7pm. So I'd have expected
the 19:04 to be the train that saw a dramatic increase in traffic if
any did.

Just to be clear for other readers, the WJ to Euston fare for the
morning commute (7am - 9.30am) is £5.50. The return journey would cost
that if one leaves Euston before 7pm, but after 7pm the fare drops to
£3.


Provided you make at least one of your journeys in the 7pm-7am window
it's cheaper to use PAYG rather than an annual gold card from Watford
Junction

I'm not sure about one of these calculations...


WJ-Euston 2268 which is 8.70 per business day. PAYG is 8.50 per
day[1]. Once you allow for at least 28 days holiday it's 9.70 per day
by goldcard.


That's fine - the Oyster PAYG fare being £5.50 + £3 = £8.50.


WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for
holidays, goldcard is 11.20.

[1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am
periods.


I cannot see where you got the total fare when using Oyster PAYG as
£9.00.

A through PAYG fare between Watford Junction and zone 1 on the
Underground[*] is £6.00 (weekdays 7am-7pm) or £3.50 (all other
times). The total is thus £9.50.

And this would be more expensive if the passenger got on the
Underground in central London to make their way back to Euston before
7pm...

£6 (morning through journey WJ - Euston - LU zone 1)
+ £1.50 (single z1 Underground journey)
+ £3 (post-7pm Euston to WJ fare)
Total = £10.50


And of course these calculations all shift about somewhat if a
commuter regularly takes a pre-7pm train from Euston back to WJ, in
which case they'd get charged the higher £5.50 fare twice so the daily
total would be £11 (or for a through journey from LU zone 1 it would
be £6 twice, so £12).


-----[*] Though in actual fact this fare would cover someone entering the
Underground network at Euston in zone 1 and travelling out on the
Underground - or indeed on a rail route where PAYG was valid - to zone
6, for example to Upminster.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

Yorkie wrote:

On Jan 23, 5:55�pm, Mizter T wrote:
What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so
that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a
sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm
unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the
origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be
used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a
straight return journey.

In the days of Zones A-D, I was told that asking for an All Zones
travelcard issued *from* Amersham to Zones 1-6, would count as the NR
equivalent to All Zones + A-D, and this was the same price with a
railcard (GBP4.80) as a regular 'All Zones'.


AIUI such a Travelcard would be issued with the origin as (say)
Amersham - it is not possible to issue it with Amersham as the
destination, I suppose because the destination has to be R1256.

But that is very interesting to know that the Railcard discounted
price of such a ticket (£4.80) is the same as the zones 1-6 Day
Travelcard. This does make sense, as when LU issues (or at least used
to issue) Railcard-discounted Day Travelcards you'd get zones A-D
thrown in "for free" as well.


We had no problems purchasing the tickets (at East Croydon). A friend
put this ticket through the barriers at Amersham, confident the ticket
would return as the system would know it was valid for unlimited trips
in Zones A-D, and he was correct; the ticket was returned and he was
able to use it to get back in through the barriers.


That's good to know. I was recently with a friend who tried to buy a
(non Railcard-discounted) Travelcard including all zones to Amersham
from New Cross station (before the ELL closed), but the ticket clerk
suggested that it was "only really" valid for one return journey to/
from Amersham that day to/from the boundary of zone 6 (and did also
indicate that it would be issued with Amersham as the origin
station).

My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and
Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on
offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so
take the East London Line from New Cross.


Does this mean that a Amersham to Zones 1-6 travelcard is now
effectively a Zones 1-9 travelcard? Or does it have the validity of
the old A-D?


Very interesting point.

It cannot make much sense that a ticket that has 'Amersham to zones
1-6 Travelcard' printed on it would be valid from Watford High Street
(last zonal station on the DC line) southwards.

One wonders whether National Rail ticket offices are in fact able to
even issue a pseudo zones 1-9 Travelcard whatsoever, given the
requirement to use "actual station descriptions". I have a strong
suspicion they cannot.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and
Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on
offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so
take the East London Line from New Cross.


I wonder if PAYG cards are still accepted at the New Cross gateline?
They should have been reprogrammed to reject them with error code 57,
but I haven't been there since the ELL closed to check this.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On 24 Jan, 18:15, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and
Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on
offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so
take the East London Line from New Cross.

I wonder if PAYG cards are still accepted at the New Cross gateline?
They should have been reprogrammed to reject them with error code 57,
but I haven't been there since the ELL closed to check this.

I guess I could try this sometime - the issue of course being that one
needs to also be in possession of a separate and valid ticket (which I
can manage, no problem), and also one will end up paying £4 unless one
touches-out somewhere else.

Incidentally, when I looked a few weeks ago, the Oyster readers at
both NX and NXG were covered in black and yellow hazard tape but were
still operational - and lots of people were still touching-in or out
as they arrived or alighted from mainline trains, presumably with
Oyster cards loaded with Travelcards - and were so doing because the
message that they should "always touch in/out" has been drilled in to
them.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:43:02 -0800 (PST), Paul Weaver
wrote:

I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone
got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in.
I've never had to stand on a train on that line before

Never used one that late[1], but that does surprise me. There might,
I suppose, have been some disruption earlier. It's very unusual for
any train on the ex-Silverlink County lines to be so busy you can't
fit on (I assume you are thinking Tube-style crush here?)

[1] Even though I normally go from Bletchley, I have a season to/from
MKC (yes, I know it's a bit more expensive, no I'm not paying for it
;) ). This allows me to double-back from MKC if I want to, or to just
walk or get the bus home from there. If I miss the 1824, it's a lot
less hassle for me to go for some dinner in London and get the 1940 VT
to MKC instead.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:16:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this
train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes.

(Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help
because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14)

However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains
are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about
21:54 then it starts getting busy again.

Because then the 4-car units start coming out.

(I'm not joking - the one big criticism I have of ex-Silverlink that I
forgot to mention at the "meet the managers" earlier this week is that
they just put 4-car sets out on Saturdays and Sundays, which tends to
result in a lot more trains being full-and-standing than you ever see
on a weekday).

As to the timetable, I can't remember what happens to the all-shacks
trains, but the fasts and slows will be offset by about 15 minutes
unlike the present situation where they leave at roughly the same time
(e.g. 1823 fast, 1824 slow). This will mean the slows will become
more attractive to MKC passengers, which might have an interesting and
undesirable[1] effect.

[1] The slows can't be longer than 8 cars southbound due to
Bletchley's short platforms and the fact that none of the stock has
SDO. They can be 12-car northbound (like the 1754 is) but you'd have
a big problem arranging that without a lot of units building up at
Northampton...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:26:45 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches,
whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of
day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd
hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when
all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare
unit will be slightly easier.

Er, wha? The 321s are, as I recall, the most reliable stock in the
UK, the Desiros rather less so. As there will be the same amount of
Desiros as 321s, rather the opposite seems likely.

I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that
there isn't enough stock to make it 8. Really, everything should be 8
or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings
certainly justify it.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On 24 Jan, 21:03, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:26:45 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches,
whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of
day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd
hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when
all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare
unit will be slightly easier.

Er, wha? The 321s are, as I recall, the most reliable stock in the
UK, the Desiros rather less so. As there will be the same amount of
Desiros as 321s, rather the opposite seems likely.

I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that
there isn't enough stock to make it 8. Really, everything should be 8
or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings
certainly justify it.

Neil



Is the 19.04 the first 4-car train of the evening? If so it seems
likely that that's more of a contributory factor to overcrowding than
any issue over fares.

I do find it slightly hard to believe that are hordes of people
milling about on the Euston concourse, waiting for the first post-7pm
cheap train to take them home.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:25:59 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Is the 19.04 the first 4-car train of the evening? If so it seems
likely that that's more of a contributory factor to overcrowding than
any issue over fares.

I believe it is, yes (the 1834 is 8-car).

I do find it slightly hard to believe that are hordes of people
milling about on the Euston concourse, waiting for the first post-7pm
cheap train to take them home.

As, to be fair, do I, though people do wait (like I do sometimes) for
the first VT to MKC, not on the grounds of cost but on the grounds of
speed/comfort.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

National Rail and Zones 7-9
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:57:53 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote:

WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for
holidays, goldcard is 11.20.

[1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am
periods.


I cannot see where you got the total fare when using Oyster PAYG as
£9.00.

A through PAYG fare between Watford Junction and zone 1 on the
Underground[*] is £6.00 (weekdays 7am-7pm) or £3.50 (all other
times). The total is thus £9.50.

You're right! I thought the WJ-Z1 journey was 3.00 - shows how often I
do it. The good news is that that means it's only going to take 5 years
for my titanium Brompton (that I haven't actually bought yet) to pay for
itself instead of 10 ;-) (As I can get it through the cycle to work
scheme it should actually pay for itself in about 3 years (although
there are always ongoing costs, tyres/tubes/brake blocks etc - I
wouldn't be surprised if I spend about 100GBP/year keeping my current
Brompton on the road)

And this would be more expensive if the passenger got on the
Underground in central London to make their way back to Euston before
7pm...

Indeed. They should, of course, use the 1.00 they will save towards a
beer before they get on the tube. It won't actually save them any money
but they'll be much happer as a result ;-)

£6 (morning through journey WJ - Euston - LU zone 1)
+ £1.50 (single z1 Underground journey)
+ £3 (post-7pm Euston to WJ fare)
Total = £10.50


And of course these calculations all shift about somewhat if a
commuter regularly takes a pre-7pm train from Euston back to WJ, in
which case they'd get charged the higher £5.50 fare twice so the daily
total would be £11 (or for a through journey from LU zone 1 it would
be £6 twice, so £12).

I guess this is probably how it works for most people which is why it's
priced the way it is. All bar one of my journey's this week have been
before 7am (actually I've been catching the 07:01 train) or after 7pm.

Tim.


--
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and there was light.

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