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National Rail and Zones 7-9
I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to
9. http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf "National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9 but use the actual station description" Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are concerned. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 23 Jan, 17:00, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to 9. http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf "National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9 but use the actual station description" Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are concerned. I've been intending to post on this subject for a while - as you say, an "All Zones Travelcard" as sold by National Rail doesn't quite have the same definitive meaning it once did - in other words... Q: When is "All Zones Travelcard" not valid in all the zones? A: When it is sold by National Rail. I think TfL are to be applauded for bringing the Watford - Euston DC lines, at least as far as Watford High Street, into the zonal system, and adjusting the zoning for the portion of the nearby Metropolitan line that is also outside Greater London (the stations that used to be zones A - D). However the zones 7-9 solution are a kind of TfL only zones, in the same manner as the old zones A - D on the Metropolitan line. What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a straight return journey. Perhaps this is TfL's fault for moving too fast, or possibly ATOCs fault for being too stuck in the mud. Nevertheless it presents an opportunity for maximum confusion. Incidentally last year's now obsolete Tube map with the old zones A - D, but with the London Overground network (including the Watford - Euston DC lines), is still available here on the TfL website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/images/...d-tube-map.gif Compare and contrast to the current Tube map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-Tube-map.gif One question - has anyone bought a Railcard discounted Day Travelcard from an LU ticket office yet this year - and if so, does it include zones 7-9 as a 'free' extra? (i.e. Is the situation similar to how zones A-D used to be included for 'free'.) |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:55:17 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Perhaps this is TfL's fault for moving too fast, or possibly ATOCs fault for being too stuck in the mud. Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar
wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. Also, much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere - and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere. Paul |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 23 Jan, 20:36, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. Neil But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004. Perhaps more people have gradually become aware that they can use it, but I certainly don't see the cause and effect relationship that you are trying to put forward. Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 8:36*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. *Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. Neil Maybe, but Oyster PAYG has been valid on Euston - Harrow & Wealdstone since it was introduced, both fast trains and the DC trains. This was because the DC lines and the Bakerloo had both National Rail and LUL fares available from inception (more or less) and there has been no distinction between the fast and slow trains in recent times. This is the reason for the Oyster readers on Platforms 16-18 at Euston, which were introduced in Silverlink times. Harrow & Wealdstone also had the Oyster readers on the footbridge, but none on the fast platforms themselves. The recent change has been the extension of PAYG to Bushey (from the start of the London Overground concession) and Watford Junction (shortly after the franchise changes). I don't see that PAYG has made services any busier, more likely that the services are becoming busier anyway, maybe due to timetable changes. Did the 18.24 always stop at Harrow? |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 5:00*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to 9. http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf "National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9 but use the actual station description" Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are concerned. National Rail don't issue an 'all zones travelcard'. The ones I've bought have always said (I think, from memory) 'R1256' as the destination |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004. You absolutely sure of that? Even if it was, though, it was not publicised as such. Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line. Nor do I, but perhaps differential pricing could have kept locals on the local services as much as possible. It works from Milton Keynes Central off-peak. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:27:31 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote: The recent change has been the extension of PAYG to Bushey (from the start of the London Overground concession) and Watford Junction (shortly after the franchise changes). I don't see that PAYG has made services any busier, more likely that the services are becoming busier anyway, maybe due to timetable changes. Did the 18.24 always stop at Harrow? Yes; there have been no significant changes to the ex-Silverlink mainline timetable this time round, or indeed last time. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 10:46*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004. You absolutely sure of that? *Even if it was, though, it was not publicised as such. The Euston to Harrow route has always been on the list of National Rail services where PAYG was valid. There was no distinct between fast and slow trains. See http://web.archive.org/web/200406062...om/buy_1_4.php This is the earliest oyster PAYG National Rail list that I can find in the web archive. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 23 Jan, 22:46, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004. You absolutely sure of that? Even if it was, though, it was not publicised as such. Yes. I cannot be a 100% certain that Oyster PAYG was valid from H&W on the fast trains when the system went live on 05/01/04, because I wasn't paying attention to such things back then, however I'd be absolutely amazed to hear that it wasn't. It was certainly valid on the Bakerloo and DC line trains from H&W. Also, take a look at this post from a thread in November 2005, where I specifically mention having just made a H&W to Euston journey using Oyster PrePay (i.e. PAYG): http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....90cb54391444cf OK, so I don't specifically mention that I travelled on the fast Silverlink County train, but I did - I remember it distinctly because I cautiously asked at two ticket offices (either side of the station) if it was legit, got the OK (twice) then spent some time searching for an Oyster reader - they were only located on the bridge serving the DC line platforms. At the end of my journey the train came into either platform 16, 17 or 18 at Euston, and I then had to search to find another Oyster reader there (there was only one back then, next to a pillar). Which I guess does somewhat prove your point that it wasn't at all well publicised! Back then the station was managed by Silverlink, who I guess would not have wanted to go out of their way to tell people about this, whereas now it is managed by London Underground (as a result of it being a London Overground station) - and LU will be a lot more forward in providing such information. Also, given the extension of Oyster PAYG up to Watford, I imagine there would have been some quite clear posters provided detailing PAYG validity. Plus H&W is now a gated station, which may have prompted passengers to think about/ ask about / notice posters about the validity of Oyster PAYG on fast trains. All in all it looks like I've just gone some way to constructing your argument for you. So perhaps you have a point. However I'm still somewhat sceptical of this idea that a significant number of passengers have transferred from the Bakerloo - I'd think that if going to Euston was more convenient for them, that's the way they'd already be going, Oyster or no Oyster. Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line. Nor do I, but perhaps differential pricing could have kept locals on the local services as much as possible. It works from Milton Keynes Central off-peak. I know you don't mean it like that, but 'keeping locals on local services as much as possible' does seem to carry an undertone that locals should know their place (or perhaps it's just a Royston Vaseyesque undertone of "local shops for local people"... er, I'm getting sidetracked here...). I tend towards the opinion that fast trains from central London can and should do a bit of stopping in outer London ("why should Watford get a fast service and Harrow shouldn't" etc). Regarding differential pricing, apart from the difficulty of actually enforcing it (see the saga of London Midland not accepting Oyster PAYG from Watford, before giving in after a week), I'm far from convinced that it's such a great idea for shorter journeys such as this. Plus, is it even really a problem - from what I hear, these peak trains are pretty civilised, unlike what happens elsewhere, so is a mild bit of crowding for a short period really an issue? Anyway, the hoi polloi will only be on the train for quarter of an hour, and if I was one of them I'm pretty sure I'd just stand in the vestibule rather than faff around getting a seat. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 23 Jan, 22:11, wrote:
On Jan 23, 5:00 pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to 9. http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf "National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9 but use the actual station description" Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are concerned. National Rail don't issue an 'all zones travelcard'. The ones I've bought have always said (I think, from memory) 'R1256' as the destination Yes, that's what is printed on the ticket, but that doesn't mean that "All Zones Travelcard" is a term that isn't used. There are 18 instances of the term "All Zones Travelcard" being used in section K of the National Fares Manual - the link to that document was provided by the OP. It has also commonly been used in publicity and literature concerning the Travelcard. Any ticket office clerk will know exactly what you want if you ask for an All Zones Travelcard (or at least until 2008 they would!), and National Rail ticket machines sell All Zones Travelcards as well (certainly the Southeastern ones do, I'll keep my eyes open for the rest). It is a commonly used and understood term and clearly used to mean a zones 1-6 Travelcard - the problem now, with the introduction of zones 7-9, is that the term has now lost its clear cut meaning. Confusion beckons. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
Paul Scott wrote:
much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere - and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere. Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester, Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-) -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632915.html (40 024 at Reading, 17 Jan 1981) |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in. I've never had to stand on a train on that line before |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar wrote: Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London. Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other passengers. As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. I don't understand why there would be any change. Oyster's always been valid to H&W on all trains. And since PAYG has been valid all the way to Watford Junction, it's been much much cheaper[1] to travel after 7pm. So I'd have expected the 19:04 to be the train that saw a dramatic increase in traffic if any did. Provided you make at least one of your journeys in the 7pm-7am window it's cheaper to use PAYG rather than an annual gold card from Watford Junction WJ-Euston 2268 which is 8.70 per business day. PAYG is 8.50 per day[1]. Once you allow for at least 28 days holiday it's 9.70 per day by goldcard. WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for holidays, goldcard is 11.20. [1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am periods. Tim. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 24, 10:43 am, Paul Weaver wrote:
I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in. I've never had to stand on a train on that line before I'd think that was the 19:04 which is the first cheap train by PAYG. IIRC the 18:54 first stop is Watford Junction. I been deliberately avoiding the 19:04 because I guessed it would be packed. I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes. (Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14) However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about 21:54 then it starts getting busy again. Tim. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 23, 5:55*pm, Mizter T wrote:
What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a straight return journey. In the days of Zones A-D, I was told that asking for an All Zones travelcard issued *from* Amersham to Zones 1-6, would count as the NR equivalent to All Zones + A-D, and this was the same price with a railcard (GBP4.80) as a regular 'All Zones'. We had no problems purchasing the tickets (at East Croydon). A friend put this ticket through the barriers at Amersham, confident the ticket would return as the system would know it was valid for unlimited trips in Zones A-D, and he was correct; the ticket was returned and he was able to use it to get back in through the barriers. Does this mean that a Amersham to Zones 1-6 travelcard is now effectively a Zones 1-9 travelcard? Or does it have the validity of the old A-D? |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
Also, much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere - and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere. Paul Although it isn't the Greater London boundary in quite a few cases (e.g. Epping and Elstree). Chiltern Railways have a neat diagram on their trains showing both the London and Centrocard zones. I can see the London Zonal system and PAYG eventually spreading to the inner suburban limits (e.g Hertford, Dartford, Slough, Shenfield) but not further. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 24, 11:16*am, "
wrote: On Jan 24, 10:43 am, Paul Weaver wrote: I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in. I've never had to stand on a train on that line before I'd think that was the 19:04 which is the first cheap train by PAYG. IIRC the 18:54 first stop is Watford Junction. I been deliberately avoiding the 19:04 because I guessed it would be packed. I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes. (Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14) However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about 21:54 then it starts getting busy again. Tim. The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches, whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare unit will be slightly easier. The other problem with the 19.04 is that is an all stations Watford - Bletchley and so a fair number of passengers don't have an alternative train. I use the 19.04 on occasion and I usually get a seat if I arrive just after the 18.54 (which is first stop Harrow) has left. There are a fair number of people who get off at Harrow, but not enough to leave seats free for people who have been standing. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 24 Jan, 11:01, " wrote:
On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar (snip) As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland "mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone. I don't understand why there would be any change. Oyster's always been valid to H&W on all trains. As I describe elsewhere, the information at Harrow & Wealdstone concerning Oyster validity is likely to be much clearer and more prominent now than it was before London Overground launched in November. The fact that Oyster PAYG was valid on the fast trains did appear somewhat opaque in the days of Silverlink. However I can't imagine that this makes a massive difference. And since PAYG has been valid all the way to Watford Junction, it's been much much cheaper[1] to travel after 7pm. So I'd have expected the 19:04 to be the train that saw a dramatic increase in traffic if any did. Just to be clear for other readers, the WJ to Euston fare for the morning commute (7am - 9.30am) is £5.50. The return journey would cost that if one leaves Euston before 7pm, but after 7pm the fare drops to £3. Provided you make at least one of your journeys in the 7pm-7am window it's cheaper to use PAYG rather than an annual gold card from Watford Junction I'm not sure about one of these calculations... WJ-Euston 2268 which is 8.70 per business day. PAYG is 8.50 per day[1]. Once you allow for at least 28 days holiday it's 9.70 per day by goldcard. That's fine - the Oyster PAYG fare being £5.50 + £3 = £8.50. WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for holidays, goldcard is 11.20. [1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am periods. I cannot see where you got the total fare when using Oyster PAYG as £9.00. A through PAYG fare between Watford Junction and zone 1 on the Underground[*] is £6.00 (weekdays 7am-7pm) or £3.50 (all other times). The total is thus £9.50. And this would be more expensive if the passenger got on the Underground in central London to make their way back to Euston before 7pm... £6 (morning through journey WJ - Euston - LU zone 1) + £1.50 (single z1 Underground journey) + £3 (post-7pm Euston to WJ fare) Total = £10.50 And of course these calculations all shift about somewhat if a commuter regularly takes a pre-7pm train from Euston back to WJ, in which case they'd get charged the higher £5.50 fare twice so the daily total would be £11 (or for a through journey from LU zone 1 it would be £6 twice, so £12). -----[*] Though in actual fact this fare would cover someone entering the Underground network at Euston in zone 1 and travelling out on the Underground - or indeed on a rail route where PAYG was valid - to zone 6, for example to Upminster. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
Yorkie wrote: On Jan 23, 5:55�pm, Mizter T wrote: What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a straight return journey. In the days of Zones A-D, I was told that asking for an All Zones travelcard issued *from* Amersham to Zones 1-6, would count as the NR equivalent to All Zones + A-D, and this was the same price with a railcard (GBP4.80) as a regular 'All Zones'. AIUI such a Travelcard would be issued with the origin as (say) Amersham - it is not possible to issue it with Amersham as the destination, I suppose because the destination has to be R1256. But that is very interesting to know that the Railcard discounted price of such a ticket (£4.80) is the same as the zones 1-6 Day Travelcard. This does make sense, as when LU issues (or at least used to issue) Railcard-discounted Day Travelcards you'd get zones A-D thrown in "for free" as well. We had no problems purchasing the tickets (at East Croydon). A friend put this ticket through the barriers at Amersham, confident the ticket would return as the system would know it was valid for unlimited trips in Zones A-D, and he was correct; the ticket was returned and he was able to use it to get back in through the barriers. That's good to know. I was recently with a friend who tried to buy a (non Railcard-discounted) Travelcard including all zones to Amersham from New Cross station (before the ELL closed), but the ticket clerk suggested that it was "only really" valid for one return journey to/ from Amersham that day to/from the boundary of zone 6 (and did also indicate that it would be issued with Amersham as the origin station). My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so take the East London Line from New Cross. Does this mean that a Amersham to Zones 1-6 travelcard is now effectively a Zones 1-9 travelcard? Or does it have the validity of the old A-D? Very interesting point. It cannot make much sense that a ticket that has 'Amersham to zones 1-6 Travelcard' printed on it would be valid from Watford High Street (last zonal station on the DC line) southwards. One wonders whether National Rail ticket offices are in fact able to even issue a pseudo zones 1-9 Travelcard whatsoever, given the requirement to use "actual station descriptions". I have a strong suspicion they cannot. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so take the East London Line from New Cross. I wonder if PAYG cards are still accepted at the New Cross gateline? They should have been reprogrammed to reject them with error code 57, but I haven't been there since the ELL closed to check this. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 24 Jan, 18:15, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: My friend needed to make at least three journeys between London and Amersham that day, so whilst I would have just bought the ticket on offer and taken a bet, they instead opted to use Oyster PAYG and so take the East London Line from New Cross. I wonder if PAYG cards are still accepted at the New Cross gateline? They should have been reprogrammed to reject them with error code 57, but I haven't been there since the ELL closed to check this. I guess I could try this sometime - the issue of course being that one needs to also be in possession of a separate and valid ticket (which I can manage, no problem), and also one will end up paying £4 unless one touches-out somewhere else. Incidentally, when I looked a few weeks ago, the Oyster readers at both NX and NXG were covered in black and yellow hazard tape but were still operational - and lots of people were still touching-in or out as they arrived or alighted from mainline trains, presumably with Oyster cards loaded with Travelcards - and were so doing because the message that they should "always touch in/out" has been drilled in to them. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:43:02 -0800 (PST), Paul Weaver
wrote: I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in. I've never had to stand on a train on that line before Never used one that late[1], but that does surprise me. There might, I suppose, have been some disruption earlier. It's very unusual for any train on the ex-Silverlink County lines to be so busy you can't fit on (I assume you are thinking Tube-style crush here?) [1] Even though I normally go from Bletchley, I have a season to/from MKC (yes, I know it's a bit more expensive, no I'm not paying for it ;) ). This allows me to double-back from MKC if I want to, or to just walk or get the bus home from there. If I miss the 1824, it's a lot less hassle for me to go for some dinner in London and get the 1940 VT to MKC instead. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:16:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes. (Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14) However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about 21:54 then it starts getting busy again. Because then the 4-car units start coming out. (I'm not joking - the one big criticism I have of ex-Silverlink that I forgot to mention at the "meet the managers" earlier this week is that they just put 4-car sets out on Saturdays and Sundays, which tends to result in a lot more trains being full-and-standing than you ever see on a weekday). As to the timetable, I can't remember what happens to the all-shacks trains, but the fasts and slows will be offset by about 15 minutes unlike the present situation where they leave at roughly the same time (e.g. 1823 fast, 1824 slow). This will mean the slows will become more attractive to MKC passengers, which might have an interesting and undesirable[1] effect. [1] The slows can't be longer than 8 cars southbound due to Bletchley's short platforms and the fact that none of the stock has SDO. They can be 12-car northbound (like the 1754 is) but you'd have a big problem arranging that without a lot of units building up at Northampton... Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:26:45 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote: The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches, whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare unit will be slightly easier. Er, wha? The 321s are, as I recall, the most reliable stock in the UK, the Desiros rather less so. As there will be the same amount of Desiros as 321s, rather the opposite seems likely. I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that there isn't enough stock to make it 8. Really, everything should be 8 or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings certainly justify it. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 24 Jan, 21:03, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:26:45 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches, whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare unit will be slightly easier. Er, wha? The 321s are, as I recall, the most reliable stock in the UK, the Desiros rather less so. As there will be the same amount of Desiros as 321s, rather the opposite seems likely. I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that there isn't enough stock to make it 8. Really, everything should be 8 or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings certainly justify it. Neil Is the 19.04 the first 4-car train of the evening? If so it seems likely that that's more of a contributory factor to overcrowding than any issue over fares. I do find it slightly hard to believe that are hordes of people milling about on the Euston concourse, waiting for the first post-7pm cheap train to take them home. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:25:59 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Is the 19.04 the first 4-car train of the evening? If so it seems likely that that's more of a contributory factor to overcrowding than any issue over fares. I believe it is, yes (the 1834 is 8-car). I do find it slightly hard to believe that are hordes of people milling about on the Euston concourse, waiting for the first post-7pm cheap train to take them home. As, to be fair, do I, though people do wait (like I do sometimes) for the first VT to MKC, not on the grounds of cost but on the grounds of speed/comfort. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:57:53 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote: WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for holidays, goldcard is 11.20. [1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am periods. I cannot see where you got the total fare when using Oyster PAYG as £9.00. A through PAYG fare between Watford Junction and zone 1 on the Underground[*] is £6.00 (weekdays 7am-7pm) or £3.50 (all other times). The total is thus £9.50. You're right! I thought the WJ-Z1 journey was 3.00 - shows how often I do it. The good news is that that means it's only going to take 5 years for my titanium Brompton (that I haven't actually bought yet) to pay for itself instead of 10 ;-) (As I can get it through the cycle to work scheme it should actually pay for itself in about 3 years (although there are always ongoing costs, tyres/tubes/brake blocks etc - I wouldn't be surprised if I spend about 100GBP/year keeping my current Brompton on the road) And this would be more expensive if the passenger got on the Underground in central London to make their way back to Euston before 7pm... Indeed. They should, of course, use the 1.00 they will save towards a beer before they get on the tube. It won't actually save them any money but they'll be much happer as a result ;-) £6 (morning through journey WJ - Euston - LU zone 1) + £1.50 (single z1 Underground journey) + £3 (post-7pm Euston to WJ fare) Total = £10.50 And of course these calculations all shift about somewhat if a commuter regularly takes a pre-7pm train from Euston back to WJ, in which case they'd get charged the higher £5.50 fare twice so the daily total would be £11 (or for a through journey from LU zone 1 it would be £6 twice, so £12). I guess this is probably how it works for most people which is why it's priced the way it is. All bar one of my journey's this week have been before 7am (actually I've been catching the 07:01 train) or after 7pm. Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:25:59 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote: I do find it slightly hard to believe that are hordes of people milling about on the Euston concourse, waiting for the first post-7pm cheap train to take them home. They probably wouldn't. Either they're going to be coming via the underground, so they'll be starting their journey after 7pm from there, or they'll be in walking distance (or cycling) in which case it's fairly easy to time your journey to arrive at Euston. I cycle from Moorgate, and baring appalling traffic I can almost guarantee that if I leave my desk at least twenty minutes before my train leaves Euston then I'll catch the train. (At 20 minutes I'll often have to run through Euston as my "on the road" cycling time varies from 10 to 15 minutes with an average of about 12 minutes. The 10 minute run requires no traffic holding me up and almost all the lights in my favour) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
Chris Tolley wrote:
Paul Scott wrote: much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere - and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere. Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester, Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-) Some countries do have a national zone model, where you pay for the zones you pass through. They use boxes or cells rather than concentric rings as the zones. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 24, 9:03*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:26:45 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches, whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare unit will be slightly easier. Er, wha? *The 321s are, as I recall, the most reliable stock in the UK, the Desiros rather less so. *As there will be the same amount of Desiros as 321s, rather the opposite seems likely. It will be easier finding a spare unit as the whole fleet will be compatible, unlike at present where you'd need to diagram an extra 350 to lengthen the 19.04. The Desiros have 25 units diagrammed from 30 (=83% in service), the 321s have 29 units diagrammed from 37 (=78% in service). The other point to consider is that the unit forming the 19.04 is diagramed with a partner in the morning peak, so a complete rewrite of the diagrams would be necessary to convert to a pair of 321s at the moment. My personal opinion is that Bletchley have an easy task (not that I want to put down their being top of the table) with the 321s as they are so lightly diagrammed and a large percentage of the fleet sit in Camden sidings during the daytime. Remember at one point silverlink that three units on loan (two to c2C and one to northern), so the extra units are there, but can't be coupled to the 19.04. Also, the 350s are catching up the 321s in the reliability stakes (I don't have this year's Golden Spanner stats to hand though to give the proper numbers). I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that there isn't enough stock to make it 8. *Really, everything should be 8 or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings certainly justify it. See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On 24 Jan, 23:43, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote: Paul Scott wrote: much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere - and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere. Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester, Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-) Some countries do have a national zone model, where you pay for the zones you pass through. They use boxes or cells rather than concentric rings as the zones. This is how things are done in Tyne & Wear - see: http://www.networkticketing.com/selector.html or for a more detailed PDF of the above: http://www.nexus.org.uk/ufs/shared/i...ne_Map_Col.pdf (though the above PDF map omits some important zonal boundary lines in the middle of the Tyne river). Thankfully these don't come into play when you want a day ticket - they're only relevant for the weekly, monthly or annual multi- operator The numbering logic behind the zones seems bizarre at first sight - the zone numbers ascend in a sort of diagonal sweep from the south west to the north east of the metropolitan county of T&W. However I think it may be designed this was to make it easy to issue and - crucially - verify the validity of tickets with zonal combinations that are in a row or in a ring (think of a busy bus driver checking tickets). Note that the Tyne ferry has zone 38 all to itself. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote: It will be easier finding a spare unit as the whole fleet will be compatible, unlike at present where you'd need to diagram an extra 350 to lengthen the 19.04. The Desiros have 25 units diagrammed from 30 (=3D83% in service), the 321s have 29 units diagrammed from 37 (=3D78% in service). The other point to consider is that the unit forming the 19.04 is diagramed with a partner in the morning peak, so a complete rewrite of the diagrams would be necessary to convert to a pair of 321s at the moment. Ah - so that one is a Desiro? I could have sworn it was a 321 when I've seen it. I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that there isn't enough stock to make it 8. =A0Really, everything should be 8 or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings certainly justify it. See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Not on a Sunday, when there are (I think) only 4 diagrams giving a half-hourly service, and most of them tend to be 4-car. This is lunacy given the actual demand. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 25, 6:10 am, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Not on a Sunday, when there are (I think) only 4 diagrams giving a half-hourly service, and most of them tend to be 4-car. This is lunacy given the actual demand. Does anyone know what proportion of the running costs of a train are power consumption and how that scales with length of train? Presumably for trains with few stops the power consumption is approximately constant regardless of the length of the train because the main loss will be air drag. But how far apart do those stops have to be? I presume trains don't use regenerative braking at all (ISTR some of the underground trains are now starting to use this) Tim. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
In message
" wrote: On Jan 25, 6:10 am, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Not on a Sunday, when there are (I think) only 4 diagrams giving a half-hourly service, and most of them tend to be 4-car. This is lunacy given the actual demand. Does anyone know what proportion of the running costs of a train are power consumption and how that scales with length of train? Presumably for trains with few stops the power consumption is approximately constant regardless of the length of the train because the main loss will be air drag. Which can be affected by the length of the train, think side winds. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 25, 6:10*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: I had forgotten that train was 4-car, though, and it surprises me that there isn't enough stock to make it 8. =A0Really, everything should be 8 or 12 except at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, as the loadings certainly justify it. See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Not on a Sunday, when there are (I think) only 4 diagrams giving a half-hourly service, and most of them tend to be 4-car. *This is lunacy given the actual demand. I certainly agree about the lengths of trains on Sundays. I thought (although I'm not absolutely sure) that PIXC (Passengers In eXcess of Capacity) standards were supposed to be met all the time. I.E. on Sundays as well as during the week. Sunday afternoon / evening seem to be far more crowded than most of the peak trains (except the 19.04!!) and like you say, it is not difficult to make all the trains 8 cars. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 25, 8:26*am, "
wrote: I presume trains don't use regenerative braking at all (ISTR some of the underground trains are now starting to use this) Tim. The Class 350s can regenerate, but I don't know if it is being used at the moment. The Pendolinos certainly do, as it is claimed to give a 17% reduction in energy use. The class 321s don't have regen, as far as I know. |
National Rail and Zones 7-9
On Jan 25, 9:45 am, Graeme Wall wrote:
In message " wrote: On Jan 25, 6:10 am, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0800 (PST), Andy wrote: See above, this is one of the delights of having a mixed fleet of incompatible units. Not on a Sunday, when there are (I think) only 4 diagrams giving a half-hourly service, and most of them tend to be 4-car. This is lunacy given the actual demand. Does anyone know what proportion of the running costs of a train are power consumption and how that scales with length of train? Presumably for trains with few stops the power consumption is approximately constant regardless of the length of the train because the main loss will be air drag. Which can be affected by the length of the train, think side winds. To a first approximation it shouldn't matter because the force will be perpendicular to the trains movement. It will have an effect but I'd expect it to be small relative to the energy required to accelerate and the energy required to push the train through the air. If I'm wrong and it is a significant effect then I'd expect that to be due to turbulence of the air passing under the train and where the carriages join. But I'd assume that a train reasonably approximates a long straight bar. Tim. |
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