I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to
9.

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf

"National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9
but use the actual station description"

Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are
concerned.

On 23 Jan, 17:00, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to
9.

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf

"National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9
but use the actual station description"

Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are
concerned.



I've been intending to post on this subject for a while - as you say,
an "All Zones Travelcard" as sold by National Rail doesn't quite have
the same definitive meaning it once did - in other words...

Q: When is "All Zones Travelcard" not valid in all the zones?
A: When it is sold by National Rail.

I think TfL are to be applauded for bringing the Watford - Euston DC
lines, at least as far as Watford High Street, into the zonal system,
and adjusting the zoning for the portion of the nearby Metropolitan
line that is also outside Greater London (the stations that used to be
zones A - D).

However the zones 7-9 solution are a kind of TfL only zones, in the
same manner as the old zones A - D on the Metropolitan line.

What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so
that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a
sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm
unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the
origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be
used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a
straight return journey.

Perhaps this is TfL's fault for moving too fast, or possibly ATOCs
fault for being too stuck in the mud. Nevertheless it presents an
opportunity for maximum confusion.

Incidentally last year's now obsolete Tube map with the old zones A -
D, but with the London Overground network (including the Watford -
Euston DC lines), is still available here on the TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/images/...d-tube-map.gif

Compare and contrast to the current Tube map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-Tube-map.gif


One question - has anyone bought a Railcard discounted Day Travelcard
from an LU ticket office yet this year - and if so, does it include
zones 7-9 as a 'free' extra? (i.e. Is the situation similar to how
zones A-D used to be included for 'free'.)

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:55:17 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Perhaps this is TfL's fault for moving too fast, or possibly ATOCs
fault for being too stuck in the mud.

Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.


Also, much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Paul

On 23 Jan, 20:36, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar

wrote:
Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

Neil


But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland
trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I
think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004.

Perhaps more people have gradually become aware that they can use it,
but I certainly don't see the cause and effect relationship that you
are trying to put forward.

Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly
don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central
London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford
Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line.

On Jan 23, 8:36*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar

wrote:
Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. *Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

Neil

Maybe, but Oyster PAYG has been valid on Euston - Harrow & Wealdstone
since it was introduced, both fast trains and the DC trains. This was
because the DC lines and the Bakerloo had both National Rail and LUL
fares available from inception (more or less) and there has been no
distinction between the fast and slow trains in recent times. This is
the reason for the Oyster readers on Platforms 16-18 at Euston, which
were introduced in Silverlink times. Harrow & Wealdstone also had the
Oyster readers on the footbridge, but none on the fast platforms
themselves.

The recent change has been the extension of PAYG to Bushey (from the
start of the London Overground concession) and Watford Junction
(shortly after the franchise changes). I don't see that PAYG has made
services any busier, more likely that the services are becoming busier
anyway, maybe due to timetable changes. Did the 18.24 always stop at
Harrow?

On Jan 23, 5:00*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to
9.

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf

"National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9
but use the actual station description"

Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are
concerned.


National Rail don't issue an 'all zones travelcard'. The ones I've
bought have always said (I think, from memory) 'R1256' as the
destination

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland
trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I
think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004.

You absolutely sure of that? Even if it was, though, it was not
publicised as such.

Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly
don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central
London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford
Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line.

Nor do I, but perhaps differential pricing could have kept locals on
the local services as much as possible. It works from Milton Keynes
Central off-peak.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:27:31 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

The recent change has been the extension of PAYG to Bushey (from the
start of the London Overground concession) and Watford Junction
(shortly after the franchise changes). I don't see that PAYG has made
services any busier, more likely that the services are becoming busier
anyway, maybe due to timetable changes. Did the 18.24 always stop at
Harrow?

Yes; there have been no significant changes to the ex-Silverlink
mainline timetable this time round, or indeed last time.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.