In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On Feb 14, 5:33*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when
I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains
to Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). *I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such
information in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm

certainly not in favour of LU readopting their old territorial
ways that they used to have with regards to British Rail /
National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could
cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will

be looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under
'Piccadilly' at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport'
as well?

It's not just a halfway house, it's bleedin obvious consistency with
other interchanges for services to airports.

And while competition is not appropriate in an integrated network,
people would reasonably expect to see more, not less, information
about the LU system in an LU train, so the absence of it when there
is NR information implies that the LU service doesn't exist.

I agree than an integrated network serving Heathrow would be a nice idea.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Feb 14, 11:48*pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,









(MIG) wrote:
On Feb 14, 5:33*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when
I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains
to Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). *I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such
information in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm
certainly not in favour of LU readopting their old territorial
ways that they used to have with regards to British Rail /
National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could
cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will
be looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under
'Piccadilly' at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport'
as well?

It's not just a halfway house, it's bleedin obvious consistency with
other interchanges for services to airports.

And while competition is not appropriate in an integrated network,
people would reasonably expect to see more, not less, information
about the LU system in an LU train, so the absence of it when there
is NR information implies that the LU service doesn't exist.

I agree than an integrated network serving Heathrow would be a nice idea.

I inadvertently implied that there was one. I should have said "...
competition is less appropriate than an integrated network ..."

On 14 Feb, 16:54, Mizter T wrote:

The line diagrams actually provide bith sets of information if
appropriate - at stations that provide interchange with National Rail
(NR), the station itself is indicated with the interchange station
symbol (a white circle with a black outline) as well as an NR (or
indeed BR) double arrow symbol. At interchanges where NR provides a
train service to airports this is additionally indicated in the box
below.

And if anyone looked carefully enough they would see, indirectly, that
(during the day especially) it can be quicker to alight at Blackfriars
or Farringdon and use FCC Thameslink to cut quite a bit of time off a
journey.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it at off-peak times when TL services
aren't so frequent - but, that said, if you have a timetable you could
still do it.

Jonathan

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:54:48 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

This is the PDF of the combined Circle and H&C lines' diagram, which
also features the and District line's 'Wimbleware' section:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...h-and-City.pdf

The other line diagrams are as follows (courtesy of Walter Briscoe who
recently provided the links in a post on a recent thread):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/bakerloo.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/central.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/district.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/jubilee.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/metropolitan.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/northern.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/piccadilly.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/victoria.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...looandCity.pdf

Speaking of which, I've recently started travelling regularly on the
Victoria line and noticed that the line diagrams are no longer
"handed"... when did this change?

As an aside: Does anyone know where these diagrams can be purchased?
The LT Museum used to carry them. I'm not sure that is true anymore.

Last time I went to the Museum Depot at Acton open day, there was a stall
selling some. I believe there is another open day coming up soon, though
whether there will be the aforementioned stall there, who knows!

LEWIS

Lew 1 wrote:
As an aside: Does anyone know where these diagrams can be
purchased? The LT Museum used to carry them. I'm not sure that is
true anymore.

Last time I went to the Museum Depot at Acton open day, there was a
stall selling some. I believe there is another open day coming up
soon, though whether there will be the aforementioned stall there,
who knows!

In my experience, that stall is always there on open days. Next one is
8/9 March. Details at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/visiting/86.aspx
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

MIG wrote:

On Feb 14, 5:33pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such information
in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm certainly not
in favour of LU readopting their old territorial ways that they used
to have with regards to British Rail / National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will be
looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under 'Piccadilly'
at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport' as well?


It's not just a halfway house, it's bleedin obvious consistency with
other interchanges for services to airports.

And while competition is not appropriate in an integrated network,
people would reasonably expect to see more, not less, information
about the LU system in an LU train, so the absence of it when there is
NR information implies that the LU service doesn't exist.


I absolutely agree, at least with regards to the District line.
Somehow displaying the fact that one should change to the Piccadilly
line for Heathrow at Acton Town, Hammersmith and Barons Court (given
the oh-so easy cross platform interchange there, as opposed to at
Earl's Court) should be possible - one doesn't want information
overload of course, but it can surely be done.

I do wonder whether displaying information about the Heathrow Connect
interchange opportunity on a District line is really helpful
whatsoever - are that many Tube passengers really going to head to
Ealing Broadway for the Heathrow Connect service? If they are, I would
expect that they know what they are doing - i.e. they know the HC
timetable, perhaps they work at Heathrow.

I suppose that goes somewhat against my notion of provision of
operator agnostic information, but I'm thinking about the somewhat
bemused passengers! I guess that when the Piccadilly line isn't
running to Heathrow it could prove useful, especially if HC is
accepting LU tickets.

But I'm left wondering about how many passengers who were intending to
go on the Piccadilly when it is working ended up getting the HC in
confusion, then got hit with a penalty fare - there's no possibility
to buy on board HC, though I dunno whether the RPIs have any leniency
in the matter at all. Is there much point in trying to issue a penalty
fare (PF) to someone heading back to Malaysia after all, especially if
they're willing and able to pay the normal fare? Indeed, do the HC
RPIs have the ability to take credit or debit card payment for PFs
there and then?

On Feb 15, 11:48*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Feb 14, 5:33pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such information
in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm certainly not
in favour of LU readopting their old territorial ways that they used
to have with regards to British Rail / National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will be
looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under 'Piccadilly'
at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport' as well?

It's not just a halfway house, it's bleedin obvious consistency with
other interchanges for services to airports.

And while competition is not appropriate in an integrated network,
people would reasonably expect to see more, not less, information
about the LU system in an LU train, so the absence of it when there is
NR information implies that the LU service doesn't exist.

I absolutely agree, at least with regards to the District line.
Somehow displaying the fact that one should change to the Piccadilly
line for Heathrow at Acton Town, Hammersmith and Barons Court (given
the oh-so easy cross platform interchange there, as opposed to at
Earl's Court) should be possible - one doesn't want information
overload of course, but it can surely be done.

I do wonder whether displaying information about the Heathrow Connect
interchange opportunity on a District line is really helpful
whatsoever - are that many Tube passengers really going to head to
Ealing Broadway for the Heathrow Connect service? If they are, I would
expect that they know what they are doing - i.e. they know the HC
timetable, perhaps they work at Heathrow.

I suppose that goes somewhat against my notion of provision of
operator agnostic information, but I'm thinking about the somewhat
bemused passengers! I guess that when the Piccadilly line isn't
running to Heathrow it could prove useful, especially if HC is
accepting LU tickets.

I'm generally in favour of giving maximum information. The operators
don't really know the range of cues which seasoned and unseasoned
travellers may use in finding their way around, meeting relatives or
anything else they might be doing on the transport system, so the
default should be to give as much as possible without clutter or, in
this case, inconsistency.

(That's why I am in favour of retaining route codes and suchlike,
which tell you where a train came from and help you instantly identify
a train among many, when you know where the one you want goes.)


But I'm left wondering about how many passengers who were intending to
go on the Piccadilly when it is working ended up getting the HC in
confusion, then got hit with a penalty fare - there's no possibility
to buy on board HC, though I dunno whether the RPIs have any leniency
in the matter at all. Is there much point in trying to issue a penalty
fare (PF) to someone heading back to Malaysia after all, especially if
they're willing and able to pay the normal fare? Indeed, do the HC
RPIs have the ability to take credit or debit card payment for PFs
there and then?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 14, 10:58 pm, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:17:26 -0000, "Graham Harrison"

wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to have been
abandoned. When, and why?

It wasn't too bad on the Bakerloo and Victoria, where there are no
branches.

But I think the association people have with left and right being east
and west on maps still made it confusing.

It was disastrous when they also tried it on branched lines like the
District, ie you turn right to head south after heading west.
****

Some of the Jubilee line cars have non-directional maps, presumably a
mistake by those putting the posters up in the first place. The majority
have the maps pointing the correct way.

Nick



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Scott wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:17:26 -0000, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:

I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to have been
abandoned. When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed, for
example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross branch) on the
Northern. In these cases, handed maps aren't going to work. Not sure
about other lines, though, or whether/why they have been abandonned.

Robin