In article , lid
(Michael Hoffman) wrote:

R.C. Payne wrote:
Scott wrote:
When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to have been
abandoned. When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed,
for example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross
branch) on the Northern. In these cases, handed maps aren't
going to work. Not sure about other lines, though, or
whether/why they have been abandonned.

I think it was confusing to have them on some but not the others.

I'm surprised it took them nearly 40 years to figure that out. The
Victoria Line had handed maps from its opening until quite recently.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article , lid
(Michael Hoffman) wrote:

R.C. Payne wrote:
Scott wrote:
When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to have been
abandoned. When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed,
for example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross
branch) on the Northern. In these cases, handed maps aren't
going to work. Not sure about other lines, though, or
whether/why they have been abandonned.

I think it was confusing to have them on some but not the others.

I'm surprised it took them nearly 40 years to figure that out. The
Victoria Line had handed maps from its opening until quite recently.

And they seem to have chosen the wrong hand (I'd have put Brixton at
the left and Walthamstow at the right).

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:25:40 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:46*pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:14:43 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. *This seems to have been
abandoned. *When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed, for
example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross branch) on the
Northern. *In these cases, handed maps aren't going to work. *Not sure
about other lines, though, or whether/why they have been abandonned.

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).

I get the impression that on all LT lines the maps on each side of the
carriage are the correct way round for the direction of travel more often
than they are the wrong way round. I wonder if there is an attempt to turn
carriages whenever possible to keep the maps the right way round.

Some trains are "handed" (e.g. A stock) and arriving back at the shed
the wrong way round leaves them out of correspondence with any
maintenance equipment which is not easily relocated. Where handed
stock was expected to be "turned the wrong way" during the day the
circuit was arranged so that it went to bed the right way round but if
services get disrupted this can prevent a train running through the
planned daily sequence and leaving it the wrong way round. In such
cases there would usually have been some provision made for the train
to make an extra journey (or sometimes one less) via the same area
where things went wrong (e.g. Watford triangle, Earls Court triangle,
Kennington loop).-

That's not actually quite right. The A stock always had universal
couplers. The problem is that many units now have only one driveable
end because of the cost of installing the OPO equipment.

It isn't the coupling that I am referring to. Not all of LU's trains
are symmetrical. At best you end up having to move umpteen yards along
the workshop to match "shore" equipment to the associated bit on the
train, at worst you end up with something on the wrong side of the
train. If it did not matter then there would not have been the
occasional reports in the LURS journal "Underground" of trains making
unusual journeys to get them the right way round.

But for years, the Northern, Piccadilly and Central, which have loops,
did have different A and D end coupling and had to deal with half the
units being uncouplable with others. The Piccadilly still does I
think.

(Actually, the Central was good at making sure the 1962 stock came out
of Hainault the same way it went in for years, then abandoned it in
the mid 1980s or so I think.)

In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
lid
(Michael Hoffman) wrote:

R.C. Payne wrote:
Scott wrote:
When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so
the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with
Brixton and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to

have been abandoned. When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed,
for example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross
branch) on the Northern. In these cases, handed maps aren't
going to work. Not sure about other lines, though, or
whether/why they have been abandonned.

I think it was confusing to have them on some but not the others.

I'm surprised it took them nearly 40 years to figure that out. The
Victoria Line had handed maps from its opening until quite recently.

And they seem to have chosen the wrong hand (I'd have put Brixton at
the left and Walthamstow at the right).

They always put North/West at the left, don't they?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,

(Michael Hoffman) wrote:

R.C. Payne wrote:
Scott wrote:
When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so
the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with
Brixton and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to

have been abandoned. When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed,
for example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross
branch) on the Northern. In these cases, handed maps aren't
going to work. Not sure about other lines, though, or
whether/why they have been abandonned.

I think it was confusing to have them on some but not the others.

I'm surprised it took them nearly 40 years to figure that out. The
Victoria Line had handed maps from its opening until quite recently.

And they seem to have chosen the wrong hand (I'd have put Brixton at
the left and Walthamstow at the right).

They always put North/West at the left, don't they?

Well, there's only one fundamentally north-south line on the network.
The Victoria is essentially SW-NE, and it strikes me as strange that
the east end (albeit a NE end) is placed on the left.

On 22 Feb, 03:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:25:40 -0800 (PST), MIG





wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:46*pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:14:43 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. *This seems to have been
abandoned. *When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed, for
example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross branch) on the
Northern. *In these cases, handed maps aren't going to work. *Not sure
about other lines, though, or whether/why they have been abandonned.

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).

I get the impression that on all LT lines the maps on each side of the
carriage are the correct way round for the direction of travel more often
than they are the wrong way round. I wonder if there is an attempt to turn
carriages whenever possible to keep the maps the right way round.

Some trains are "handed" (e.g. A stock) and arriving back at the shed
the wrong way round leaves them out of correspondence with any
maintenance equipment which is not easily relocated. Where handed
stock was expected to be "turned the wrong way" during the day the
circuit was arranged so that it went to bed the right way round but if
services get disrupted this can prevent a train running through the
planned daily sequence and leaving it the wrong way round. In such
cases there would usually have been some provision made for the train
to make an extra journey (or sometimes one less) via the same area
where things went wrong (e.g. Watford triangle, Earls Court triangle,
Kennington loop).-

That's not actually quite right. *The A stock always had universal
couplers. *The problem is that many units now have only one driveable
end because of the cost of installing the OPO equipment.

It isn't the coupling that I am referring to. Not all of LU's trains
are symmetrical. At best you end up having to move umpteen yards along
the workshop to match "shore" equipment to the associated bit on the
train, at worst you end up with something on the wrong side of the
train. If it did not matter then there would not have been the
occasional reports in the LURS journal "Underground" of trains making
unusual journeys to get them the right way round.

Nevertheless it seems unlikely that A stock would be built with
universal couplers so that it could face any old way, if there was
some other reason why it always had to face the same way.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:11:02 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

On 22 Feb, 03:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:25:40 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:46*pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:14:43 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. *This seems to have been
abandoned. *When, and why?

Some lines have features that cause trains to become reveresed, for
example Heathrow on the Picc, Kennington (Charring Cross branch) on the
Northern. *In these cases, handed maps aren't going to work. *Not sure
about other lines, though, or whether/why they have been abandonned.

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).

I get the impression that on all LT lines the maps on each side of the
carriage are the correct way round for the direction of travel more often
than they are the wrong way round. I wonder if there is an attempt to turn
carriages whenever possible to keep the maps the right way round.

Some trains are "handed" (e.g. A stock) and arriving back at the shed
the wrong way round leaves them out of correspondence with any
maintenance equipment which is not easily relocated. Where handed
stock was expected to be "turned the wrong way" during the day the
circuit was arranged so that it went to bed the right way round but if
services get disrupted this can prevent a train running through the
planned daily sequence and leaving it the wrong way round. In such
cases there would usually have been some provision made for the train
to make an extra journey (or sometimes one less) via the same area
where things went wrong (e.g. Watford triangle, Earls Court triangle,
Kennington loop).-

That's not actually quite right. *The A stock always had universal
couplers. *The problem is that many units now have only one driveable
end because of the cost of installing the OPO equipment.

It isn't the coupling that I am referring to. Not all of LU's trains
are symmetrical. At best you end up having to move umpteen yards along
the workshop to match "shore" equipment to the associated bit on the
train, at worst you end up with something on the wrong side of the
train. If it did not matter then there would not have been the
occasional reports in the LURS journal "Underground" of trains making
unusual journeys to get them the right way round.

Nevertheless it seems unlikely that A stock would be built with
universal couplers so that it could face any old way, if there was
some other reason why it always had to face the same way.

The universal couplers in the case of A stock meant that reversal of a
train via the Watford triangle did not bugger things up in relation to
coupling two 4-coach units to make an 8-coach train while units were
already in service, as was the norm in days gone by. The lack of such
an ability would have had an immediate effect on passenger services if
it prevented re-formation of said trains for rush-hour services
whereas arriving at the depot the wrong way round (still possible as
the Watford triangle is in normal use) WRT any fixed equipment does
not have an immediate effect on passenger services; it would only be
noticed by the passengers if so many units needed turning that it
eventually resulted in delays to maintenance that left a shortage of
available stock. In that respect the stock doesn't always have to face
the same way "in the wild" as long as (if it is actually necessary) it
reaches the workshop the right way round.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:05:57 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

On Feb 22, 12:00*am, "John Salmon" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).

That would not reverse them, unless they go 'off route' to run direct
from Aldgate East to Tower Hill, or Gloucester Road to Earls Court.

C stock always had universal couplers though, so that must have been
the assumption.

With the amount of traffic via the relevant junctions it can be
reasonably anticipated that the occasional points failure is going to
result in trains being sent the wrong way on some occasions thus
making handed coupling an undesirable feature WRT the possibility of
it not being impossible that at the same time a train could fail and
require the coupling of a following train for assistance. This leads
onto the question of whether or not C and D stock can assist each
other but if they can't then it still reduces the need for a coupling
adaptor if the following train is the same type.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:22:45 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:00:02 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).
That couldn't result in it becoming reversed.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the triangular junctions at Earls
Court and Aldgate and the uncertainty of a train retracing its
previous route if e.g. a points failure causes it to go the "other
way" at some time during the day.

I can see that something like points failure can cause odd moves, but in
normal service, I though the Tower Hill - Whitechapel, and the Earls
Court - Gloucester Road sides of the respective triangles only see D
stock, not C stock, which would prevent reversals in normal service
(unlike Heathrow or the Kennington loop). Does 92 stock ever run all
the way round the Hainault loop in normal service patterns?

Robin

On 25 Feb, 11:19, "R.C. Payne" wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:22:45 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:00:02 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

Reversal can also happen with C stock that doesn't stay on the same
line service all day (i.e. Circle Wimbleware or Circle
Hammersmith and City).
That couldn't result in it becoming reversed.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the triangular junctions at Earls
Court and Aldgate and the uncertainty of a train retracing its
previous route if e.g. a points failure causes it to go the "other
way" at some time during the day.

I can see that something like points failure can cause odd moves, but in
normal service, I though the Tower Hill - Whitechapel, and the Earls
Court - Gloucester Road sides of the respective triangles only see D
stock, not C stock, which would prevent reversals in normal service
(unlike Heathrow or the Kennington loop). *Does 92 stock ever run all
the way round the Hainault loop in normal service patterns?

Robin

I don't think the C stock has any particular direction anyway, so you
couldn't really tell if it was "reversed".

I don't think they Central Line has any normal trips all round the
loop, but the presence of a large depot could result in it going in
from one end and then back into service from the other. They managed
to avoid this with the 1962 stock and then seemed to abandon the
principle some time in the 1980s, so they started facing in all
directions towards the end of their life. And it presumably matters
less with 1992 stock.