On Apr 29, 3:50*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 29 Apr, 20:52, 1506 wrote:





On Apr 16, 3:40 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 16 Apr, 22:51, Tom Anderson wrote:

(snip)

High Wycombe to Shoreditch with one change would
require ELL trains to be running through as far as
West Hampstead, which is not currently the plan (AIUI).

Yep. Its dedicated tracks will end at H&I with only a single track
connection beyond to the westbound NLL for stock transfers,
making it operationally impossible to run any sort of service.

Journeys like this would be brilliant, and would make a lot of
sense to arrange stopping patterns so that they were possible,
but it would go against the grain of current planning, which is
already deleting fast-train stops from Watford Junction
(although they have been added at Stratford in recent years,
so YMMV).

I think the most recent RUS recommended stopping every train at
Stratford.

Thank you "U". *My mistake. *I had forgotten that the East and North
London lines are not really being integrated. *The will only run in
parallel and share some stations.

The NLL and ELL will only meet and share a station at Highbury and
Islington, they will not run in parallel.

The finalised plan can be seen in a diagram on page 5 of this PDF:http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...appendix12.pdf

I think there was some speculations as to whether ELL trains would run
along to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury station and then reverse there,
indeed there was also speculation that there would be through running
from the ELL onto the NLL.

Anyway, this is not to be - which is possibly just as well for the
sake of providing a reliable service, even though through running
would have been convenient for passengers. Anyway, changing at
Highbury & Islington shouldn't be too much of a hassle - there will be
frequent trains on both the NLL and ELL, and lifts will be provided at
all the overground platforms to facilitate a step-free interchange.


Thanks Mizter T. However, I think I am missing something here. Will
both lines not call at Caononbury and Dalston Junction?

Thanks

Adrian

On Apr 30, 12:38 am, 1506 wrote:
I think there was some speculations as to whether ELL trains would run
along to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury station and then reverse there,
indeed there was also speculation that there would be through running
from the ELL onto the NLL.

Thanks Mizter T. However, I think I am missing something here. Will
both lines not call at Caononbury and Dalston Junction?

No - both will call at Canonbury, the ELL will call at Dalston
Junction, and the NLL will continue to call at Dalston Kingsland,
which is a reasonably decent walk from DJ (I'm rubbish at ASCII art,
but DK and DJ are both after the junction - DK is on the eastbound NLL
route to Stratford, and DJ is on the southbound ELL route to
Whitechapel).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

On Apr 30, 12:38 am, 1506 wrote:

I think there was some speculations as to whether ELL trains would run
along to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury station and then reverse there,
indeed there was also speculation that there would be through running
from the ELL onto the NLL.

Thanks Mizter T. However, I think I am missing something here. Will
both lines not call at Caononbury and Dalston Junction?

No - both will call at Canonbury, the ELL will call at Dalston
Junction, and the NLL will continue to call at Dalston Kingsland,
which is a reasonably decent walk from DJ (I'm rubbish at ASCII art,
but DK and DJ are both after the junction - DK is on the eastbound
NLL route to Stratford, and DJ is on the southbound ELL route to
Whitechapel).


Just to clarify what John said - when he states it is a "reasonably
decent walk" between Dalston Junction and Dalston Kingsland, that
should be taken to mean that it really isn't very far at all (which I
presume is what John meant). For ticketing purposes I'd think it
highly likely that there will be an out-of-station interchange between
DK and DJ.

The only real issue I foresee is the possibility of pavement
congestion - Kingsland High Street is already a busy, if somewhat down
market, shopping street. Transferring pax would thus need to negotiate
this as well as cross couple of busy roads - there are of course
proper traffic-light controlled crossings, but it all adds up.

On 30 Apr, 00:38, 1506 wrote:

On Apr 29, 3:50 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 29 Apr, 20:52, 1506 wrote:

(snip)

I had forgotten that the East and North London lines
are not really being integrated. The will only run in
parallel and share some stations.

The NLL and ELL will only meet and share a station at Highbury and
Islington, they will not run in parallel.

The finalised plan can be seen in a diagram on page 5 of this PDF:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...appendix12.pdf

I think there was some speculations as to whether ELL trains would run
along to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury station and then reverse there,
indeed there was also speculation that there would be through running
from the ELL onto the NLL.

Anyway, this is not to be - which is possibly just as well for the
sake of providing a reliable service, even though through running
would have been convenient for passengers. Anyway, changing at
Highbury & Islington shouldn't be too much of a hassle - there will be
frequent trains on both the NLL and ELL, and lifts will be provided at
all the overground platforms to facilitate a step-free interchange.

Thanks Mizter T. However, I think I am missing something here. Will
both lines not call at Caononbury and Dalston Junction?


That's because I'm misleading you, sorry! I had managed to completely
forget about Canonbury station, which is especially daft as I actually
use it every now and then. Both the ELL and NLL will call at both
Canonbury and Highbury & Islington, so you're absolutely right to say
that they will run in parallel and share some (i.e. two) stations.

John B attempts to describe the situation as it will be in his reply
to your post.

However it might help to take a look at this PDF map of the ELLX
project (then again it might not!):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

The route from Dalston Junction round to Canonbury and then H&I is
shown in lurid green. What the map doesn't show is the route of the
NLL, which will continue (exactly as it does now) east from Canonbury
to Dalston Kingsland station and then on to Hackney Central. Dalston
Kingsland station is a very short distance north of Dalston Junction.

Here's a street map of the area...
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=533614&y=184644

....Dalston Junction station was and will be just to the west of
Roseberry Place (where the arrow is pointing), and the entrance was
and will be on Dalston Lane, to the north. You can see Dalston
Kingsland station a little further north on the west side of Kingsland
High Street.

Dalston Kingsland station is actually a new station opened in 1983 on
the site of an old station, which was just called "Kingsland".
Kingsland station shut in 1865 when the nearby Dalston Junction
station opened on the new route into Broad Street station. Dalston
Junction then closed along with the rest of this line in 1986.

There was thus never any direct link between the platforms on the east-
west alignment at (Dalston) Kingsland and the north-south alignment at
Dalston Junction - indeed, for most of the time only one of the two
stations were ever actually open for use.

There's more info on Dalston Junction on the 'Disused Stations'
website he
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml

If you take a look at the old map towards the bottom of that page
you'll see that Dalston Junction also once had a chord running north-
east to connect with what is now called the NLL. This isn't being
reinstated now - there isn't the perceived demand for such services to
run up the ELL and then turn east for Hackney - however should it ever
be needed this link could be reinstated at some point in the future,
as nothing has been built on it apart from a car park.

"Mizter T" wrote
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

The route from Dalston Junction round to Canonbury and then H&I is
shown in lurid green. What the map doesn't show is the route of the
NLL, which will continue (exactly as it does now) east from Canonbury
to Dalston Kingsland station and then on to Hackney Central. Dalston
Kingsland station is a very short distance north of Dalston Junction.

The ELLX will actually be on the tracks of the NLL passenger service between
Dalston and Highbury & Islington, with the NLL shifted to the northern part
of the formation, using the current freight lines, and with the fourth track
reinstated. Between Highbury & Islington and Camden Road there will also be
four tracks, in this case two for the NLL passenger service and effectively
two freight loops.

Half the ELLX trains will terminate at Dalston Junction, with only the other
half going on to Highbury & Islington.

Peter

On 30 Apr, 15:45, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrotehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

The route from Dalston Junction round to Canonbury and then H&I is
shown in lurid green. What the map doesn't show is the route of the
NLL, which will continue (exactly as it does now) east from Canonbury
to Dalston Kingsland station and then on to Hackney Central. Dalston
Kingsland station is a very short distance north of Dalston Junction.

The ELLX will actually be on the tracks of the NLL passenger service between
Dalston and Highbury & Islington, with the NLL shifted to the northern part
of the formation, using the current freight lines, and with the fourth track
reinstated. Between Highbury & Islington and Camden Road there will also be
four tracks, in this case two for the NLL passenger service and effectively
two freight loops.


Apologies, of course the NLL won't continue "exactly as it does now",
but rather "broadly as it does now", in the manner you describe - the
NLL service will basically stay the same, although of course it is set
to get a lot more frequent (8tph between Stratford and Camden Road as
opposed to the current 4, albeit with some rush-hour extras).


Half the ELLX trains will terminate at Dalston Junction, with only the other
half going on to Highbury & Islington.


I understand that actually 8tph will terminate at H&I on the ELL,
whilst 4tph will terminate at Dalston Junction. This information comes
from an an ORR document via Mr Thant's London Connections weblog - the
relevant post is here along with a diagram of the new service levels
on the NLL and bit of the ELL:

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...e-upgrade.html


By the by, I am somewhat stuck as to whether to refer to the new East
London Line as the "ELL" or "ELLX" - I had until recently referred to
it as the ELLX (which of course made sense when London Underground's
ELL was still running), as the term seemed to encompass the great
expansion of the line. However the South London RUS referred to it as
the ELL, and that usage matches the NLL, WLL and SLL, so I half-
decided to drop the X. Of course this doesn't actually matter at all
because you'll all know what I'm talking about - nonetheless perhaps
we should coin an entirely new name for it - how about the Daldon /
Croyston / Highdon line / Croybury / Crystalburydon / Dalace /
Hoxdon / Croxdon line...you get the idea, and I suspect that several
of you could also do somewhat better too!

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 30 Apr, 15:45, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T"
wrotehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

The route from Dalston Junction round to Canonbury and then H&I is
shown in lurid green. What the map doesn't show is the route of the
NLL, which will continue (exactly as it does now) east from Canonbury
to Dalston Kingsland station and then on to Hackney Central. Dalston
Kingsland station is a very short distance north of Dalston Junction.

The ELLX will actually be on the tracks of the NLL passenger service
between
Dalston and Highbury & Islington, with the NLL shifted to the northern
part
of the formation, using the current freight lines, and with the fourth
track
reinstated. Between Highbury & Islington and Camden Road there will also
be
four tracks, in this case two for the NLL passenger service and
effectively
two freight loops.


Apologies, of course the NLL won't continue "exactly as it does now",
but rather "broadly as it does now", in the manner you describe - the
NLL service will basically stay the same, although of course it is set
to get a lot more frequent (8tph between Stratford and Camden Road as
opposed to the current 4, albeit with some rush-hour extras).


Half the ELLX trains will terminate at Dalston Junction, with only the
other
half going on to Highbury & Islington.


I understand that actually 8tph will terminate at H&I on the ELL,
whilst 4tph will terminate at Dalston Junction. This information comes
from an an ORR document via Mr Thant's London Connections weblog - the
relevant post is here along with a diagram of the new service levels
on the NLL and bit of the ELL:

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...e-upgrade.html


By the by, I am somewhat stuck as to whether to refer to the new East
London Line as the "ELL" or "ELLX" - I had until recently referred to
it as the ELLX (which of course made sense when London Underground's
ELL was still running), as the term seemed to encompass the great
expansion of the line. However the South London RUS referred to it as
the ELL, and that usage matches the NLL, WLL and SLL, so I half-
decided to drop the X. Of course this doesn't actually matter at all
because you'll all know what I'm talking about - nonetheless perhaps
we should coin an entirely new name for it - how about the Daldon /
Croyston / Highdon line / Croybury / Crystalburydon / Dalace /
Hoxdon / Croxdon line...you get the idea, and I suspect that several
of you could also do somewhat better too!

ELL - Thameslink East
WLL - Thameslink West
NLL - Crossrail North
SLL - Crossrail South

:-)

Paul S

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008, Paul Scott wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

By the by, I am somewhat stuck as to whether to refer to the new East
London Line as the "ELL" or "ELLX" - I had until recently referred to
it as the ELLX (which of course made sense when London Underground's
ELL was still running), as the term seemed to encompass the great
expansion of the line. However the South London RUS referred to it as
the ELL, and that usage matches the NLL, WLL and SLL, so I half-
decided to drop the X. Of course this doesn't actually matter at all
because you'll all know what I'm talking about - nonetheless perhaps we
should coin an entirely new name for it - how about the Daldon /
Croyston / Highdon line / Croybury / Crystalburydon / Dalace / Hoxdon /
Croxdon line...you get the idea, and I suspect that several of you
could also do somewhat better too!

Follow the example of the light blue line and just call it the Whitechapel
line?

ELL - Thameslink East
WLL - Thameslink West
NLL - Crossrail North
SLL - Crossrail South

The full orbital service - Thamescross Linkrail

tom

--
What were the skies like when you were young?