On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:10:07 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

John B wrote:
On 9 May, 12:33, Boltar wrote:
the system should go out of its way to accommodate them. As it is, TfL
does allow people who are clueless about the system to use it, but
imposes a fee for the inconvenience they cause.
That kind of arrogant attitude just about sums you and your fellow TfL
apologists up. I rest my case.

I look forward to meeting you next time I'm in Toyko, ranting about
the arrogance of the subway company as you struggle to find the exit.

If Tokyo (or for that matter Timbuktu, Ulan Bator or Glasgow) don't use
some kind of obvious pictogram or distinctive sign for the way out, I'd
say they were being a bit odd - not least on safety grounds.

I've never been to Japan, but do they not transliterate the station
names into the Roman alphabet? Thailand does. Or just use a (western)
alphanumeric code, which I've met somewhere.

You are lulled into a slightly false sense of security by the Japanese
Railway system. I caught the Narita Express into Tokyo - the ticket
transaction, journey etc was all absolutely fine. I had to change in
Tokyo in the rush hour (!) to reach my final stop. Through luck rather
than any sense of planning the adjacent platform to where the NE stopped
was for a limited stop commuter service which went directly to the
station I wanted. Signage on the Tokyo rail system (in Tokyo itself)
certainly had roman lettering as well as kanji. Platform indicators
were also bi-lingual which helped enormously. However there isn't much
other English around - I walked past the JR office at Ikebukuro 3 times
before realising what it was. I had to get a voucher exchanged for a
Japan Rail Pass. Overall though railway staff were unfailingly helpful
and polite as were the Japanese themselves. Tokyo is quite overwhelming
even if you're used to London's scale of movement / commuting. I was a
little disorientated for a few days but I would certainly go back now
I've got over the initial learning curve. Objective for the next visit -
be brave enough to use a bus ;-)

Being used to Singapore and Hong Kong I had an unrealistic expectation
of how easy Tokyo would be. The main railway lines and Metro were fine -
however I did not venture on to the private lines or into the suburbs
where I expect the language on signs issue would tilt very heavily
towards Japanese only. If nothing else it made me appreciate how
strange it must be for the Japanese when they come to the west and see
very little of their own culture around them.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 9 May, 21:13, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Boltar wrote:
On May 8, 9:25 pm, Simon wrote:
You are just being silly. TfL provide cheap and excitant travel for
Londoners.

Sorry , that joke is lost on me , it must be too early in the morning.

It's true, though. Try elsewhere in the country. See what response you
get in Hull to something like "the 01.00 bus was a whole 10 min late,
and they only run every 20 min".

No offence to Hull but its hardly a seething metropolis. I won't deny
that public transport in this country frankly is **** - every
reasonable size city in germany and quite number in france have a
metro system. Here what do we have: london , a toytown subway in
glasgow , the newcastle metro which has a service lousy enough to
rival the northern line in the bad old days and liverpools
"underground" which is really just a suburban NR system with a few
underground stations.
Other large cities had nothing until recently when some cut price
trams rocked up. Cities like brum and manchester need proper
underground systems , not trams and yet more buses.

B2003

In article
,
Boltar wrote:

When people fill up their car they're hardly likely to buy 1 quid of
petrol. More like 20 , 30 quid or more whereupon it becomes much more
practical to use a card. How does that equate with somebody giving a
bus driver a pound coin and carrying on down the bus?

Ah Boltar, those new fangled internal combustion thingies are so noisy
and expensive aren't they. Oh for the days of the horse drawn tram. Oh
for a friendly conductor and a bag of groats. I mean oats.

E.

Paul Corfield wrote:

however I did not venture on to the private lines or into the suburbs
where I expect the language on signs issue would tilt very heavily
towards Japanese only.

It is harder but the way I did it was to just get on the first train
noting the symbol for the station, then check the next station on my map
and if wrong get off and go back the other way. Theres a 50-50 chance of
being right.

Having clear directions at the destination is vital too..

mf

On 9 May, 21:13, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Boltar wrote:
On May 8, 9:25 pm, Simon wrote:
You are just being silly. TfL provide cheap and excitant travel for
Londoners.

Sorry , that joke is lost on me , it must be too early in the morning.

It's true, though. Try elsewhere in the country. See what response you
get in Hull to something like "the 01.00 bus was a whole 10 min late,
and they only run every 20 min".

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

They run that late in Hull ? Because they bleeming don't in Manchester

On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:54:13 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

Being used to Singapore and Hong Kong I had an unrealistic expectation
of how easy Tokyo would be. The main railway lines and Metro were fine -
however I did not venture on to the private lines or into the suburbs
where I expect the language on signs issue would tilt very heavily
towards Japanese only

My experience in Nagoya was consistent with this. In the centre of
the city there was very comprehensive signage using the Latin
alphabet, and even where some of the translations were a little
eccentric they could usually be understood. So it was disorienting to
find that some people I was visiting in a suburb were close to the
first metro station, travelling out of town, that had signage in
Japanese only

Martin

Connaire wrote:
On 9 May, 21:13, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Boltar wrote:
On May 8, 9:25 pm, Simon wrote:
You are just being silly. TfL provide cheap and excitant travel for
Londoners.
Sorry , that joke is lost on me , it must be too early in the morning.
It's true, though. Try elsewhere in the country. See what response you
get in Hull to something like "the 01.00 bus was a whole 10 min late,
and they only run every 20 min".

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

They run that late in Hull ? Because they bleeming don't in Manchester

They don't - that's the point. When I go home I get blank stares if I
use an oxymoron like "night bus".

Yet they do run in somewhere like Croydon. Not that I'm complaining
about being able to have a bus to myself (and the driver, obviously).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Boltar wrote:
On 9 May, 21:13, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Boltar wrote:
On May 8, 9:25 pm, Simon wrote:
You are just being silly. TfL provide cheap and excitant travel for
Londoners.
Sorry , that joke is lost on me , it must be too early in the morning.
It's true, though. Try elsewhere in the country. See what response you
get in Hull to something like "the 01.00 bus was a whole 10 min late,
and they only run every 20 min".

No offence to Hull but its hardly a seething metropolis.

Though it is a major city. Insert another one if that helps.

I won't deny
that public transport in this country frankly is **** - every
reasonable size city in germany and quite number in france have a
metro system. Here what do we have: london , a toytown subway in
glasgow , the newcastle metro which has a service lousy enough to
rival the northern line in the bad old days and liverpools
"underground" which is really just a suburban NR system with a few
underground stations.
Other large cities had nothing until recently

They once had trams, but we shut 'em all (except one).

when some cut price
trams rocked up. Cities like brum and manchester need proper
underground systems , not trams and yet more buses.

Proper undergrounds cost a fortune and take ages to build (except in
Madrid?), whereas sane countries can get a tram running fairly cheaply
and quickly. France is tending to go for trams rather than metros these
days - a politician can say "vote for me and I'll build a tram", and
with luck he'll be cutting the ribbon in time for an election.

Places like France and Spain get a tramway running in the time it takes
us to agree it might be a good idea to think about it!
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On May 6, 10:10*am, Boltar wrote:
I had to use a bus on the w/e and found that my pre pay had run out.
It cost me 2 quid to go 1 mile because I had to pay by cash. Is that
fair? I don't think so. Same story on the tube.

I think one of the first things boris should at is ditch Kens
idiotic , deliberate and spiteful disparity between the Oyster and
cash fares to deliberately force occasional commuters to use Oyster to
no benefit to themselves but every benefit to TfL.

B2003

The people that the cash fares catch are hapless tourists. This is
especially so on the N9 out of Heathrow - the ONLY public transport
after HEX and Connect and the Tube have shut down. Then tourists might
arrive on a late flight, and having just visited an ATM only have £10
notes (or worse £20s). When I used to work at LHR I witnessed hundreds
of times a stroppy bus driver refusing to allow a tourist (usually
with luggage) to board because said driver did not have any change.
They don't have a float when they start their shifts. Most airport
workers use Oyster. So the lack of cash change is a real problem. The
situation would be marginally better if the airlines sold Oyster cards
on board, or if Oysters could be bought from vending machines. Even
ticket machines would be useful at Heathrow Central - but there are
none there. Rip-off Britain again. CJB.

On Sat, 10 May 2008 02:48:16 -0700 (PDT), CJB
wrote:

The people that the cash fares catch are hapless tourists. This is
especially so on the N9 out of Heathrow - the ONLY public transport
after HEX and Connect and the Tube have shut down. Then tourists might
arrive on a late flight, and having just visited an ATM only have £10
notes (or worse £20s). When I used to work at LHR I witnessed hundreds
of times a stroppy bus driver refusing to allow a tourist (usually
with luggage) to board because said driver did not have any change.
They don't have a float when they start their shifts. Most airport
workers use Oyster. So the lack of cash change is a real problem. The
situation would be marginally better if the airlines sold Oyster cards
on board, or if Oysters could be bought from vending machines. Even
ticket machines would be useful at Heathrow Central - but there are
none there. Rip-off Britain again. CJB.

While not excusing the poor attitude of the bus drivers concerning
change giving I think people are just refusing to recognise that London
is far from unique in appearing awkward to tourists. I cannot think of
a single transport organisation in a major city that I have visited that
does not attempt to sell a premium priced, restricted availability
product to tourists. I believe London has, at last, got rid of the
premium priced Tourist Travelcard. I can't think of a city anywhere that
makes it easy for people with loads of fresh, high denomination currency
to use standard public transport services. Many systems are farebox no
change, exact fare only or else charge a direct premium for cash
acceptance or force you to pay off system anyway. If people think
London's buses and tubes are awkward or impenetrable then try Rome! Try
to find the public transport at Singapore Airport, try to find a NYC
transit bus to take you into town at JFK in NYC.

In my experience the only way you get access to the cheap, every day
tickets is to do a bit of research beforehand. I don't recall who it
was, in another post, that said you were basically a bit stupid or else
a raving transport loony to do this but it's the only way IME to get a
decent priced ticket. I'm not saying this is right btw - I'm simply
saying that London is far from being unique in seeming difficult or
discriminatory of its treatment of visitors.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!