There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio system this
evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the entire District and
Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker Street and east of Whitechapel, and
the Piccadilly between Green Park and Acton Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio system goes
down? Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone system is still
there for emergencies? If so, I would have thought it possible to run a
reduced service like the Piccadilly "special timetable" at 5-minute
intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it being
regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or so), why can't a
limited service be run on the open sections from Hammersmith or West
Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Stopping all the trains and shutting the stations just seems like the easy
way out for LU, and sod the passengers.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In article ,
Richard J. wrote:
Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it being
regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or so),

When they didn't have radios, they had a guard. It was the move to OPO
that - I think - drove the desire to have good comms between motorman
and signaller.

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

On 16 Aug, 01:20, "Richard J." wrote:
There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio system this
evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the entire District and
Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker Street and east of Whitechapel, and
the Piccadilly between Green Park and Acton Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio system goes
down? *Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone system is still
there for emergencies? *If so, I would have thought it possible to run a
reduced service like the Piccadilly "special timetable" at 5-minute
intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it being
regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or so), why can't a
limited service be run on the open sections from Hammersmith or West
Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

When mobile reception comes to the tube I guess that you could use a
cab mobile as a backup, like the police do. Of course Bob will be out
on strike if they suggest that. Or if they don't suggest it.

Paul Weaver wrote:
On 16 Aug, 01:20, "Richard J." wrote:
There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio system
this evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the entire
District and Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker Street and
east of Whitechapel, and the Piccadilly between Green Park and Acton
Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio
system goes down? Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone
system is still there for emergencies? If so, I would have thought
it possible to run a reduced service like the Piccadilly "special
timetable" at 5-minute intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it being
regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or so), why
can't a limited service be run on the open sections from Hammersmith
or West Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

You kick the passengers out, run non-stop empty to Green Park and then open
the doors and carry on.

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:03:42 +0100, John Rowland wrote:

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

You kick the passengers out, run non-stop empty to Green Park and then open
the doors and carry on.

Or just reverse in the (double-ended) siding between Hammersmith and
Barons Court.

On Aug 16, 2:03 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Paul Weaver wrote:
On 16 Aug, 01:20, "Richard J." wrote:
There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio system
this evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the entire
District and Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker Street and
east of Whitechapel, and the Piccadilly between Green Park and Acton
Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio
system goes down? Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone
system is still there for emergencies? If so, I would have thought
it possible to run a reduced service like the Piccadilly "special
timetable" at 5-minute intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it being
regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or so), why
can't a limited service be run on the open sections from Hammersmith
or West Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

You kick the passengers out, run non-stop empty to Green Park and then open
the doors and carry on.

You can reverse at Hammersmith Picc only on the east to west via
siding and West Kensington both ways.

You cannot carry on empty in a single track tunnel with a defective
radio unless a second person is also with the train operator or the
OPO alarm still transmits.

The failure was caused by hardware fault at a connect core site.Radio
calls were still being sent to the wrong talk groups (controller) this
afternoon.

Trains in the open sections did continue in passenger service (at the
east end of the District) if Airwave radios are available. There are
only a limited number on the network though.

chunky munky wrote:
On Aug 16, 2:03 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Paul Weaver wrote:
On 16 Aug, 01:20, "Richard J." wrote:
There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio
system this evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the
entire District and Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker
Street and east of Whitechapel, and the Piccadilly between Green
Park and Acton Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio
system goes down? Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone
system is still there for emergencies? If so, I would have thought
it possible to run a reduced service like the Piccadilly "special
timetable" at 5-minute intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it
being regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or
so), why can't a limited service be run on the open sections from
Hammersmith or West Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

You kick the passengers out, run non-stop empty to Green Park and
then open the doors and carry on.

You can reverse at Hammersmith Picc only on the east to west via
siding and West Kensington both ways.

You can in fact reverse at Hammersmith west to east also, by departing e/b
from the w/b platform and carrying passengers through the siding on to the
e/b track. I've done it myself during a weekend closure west of Hammersmith.

You cannot carry on empty in a single track tunnel with a defective
radio unless a second person is also with the train operator or the
OPO alarm still transmits.

Were the OPO alarms working after Connect failed yesterday?

The failure was caused by hardware fault at a connect core site.Radio
calls were still being sent to the wrong talk groups (controller) this
afternoon.

So 2 complete lines stopped running because of one hardware fault in the
radio system. I hope someone high up in LU is asking searching questions
about resilience.

Trains in the open sections did continue in passenger service (at the
east end of the District) if Airwave radios are available. There are
only a limited number on the network though.

Does anyone know what the rules are on National Rail OPO trains if the cab
radio fails?

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Aug 16, 3:21 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
chunky munky wrote:
On Aug 16, 2:03 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Paul Weaver wrote:
On 16 Aug, 01:20, "Richard J." wrote:
There seems to have been a major failure of the Connect radio
system this evening (15 Aug), leading to the suspension of the
entire District and Circle Lines, plus the H&C west of Baker
Street and east of Whitechapel, and the Piccadilly between Green
Park and Acton Town.

Is it really necessary to shut down lines entirely if the radio
system goes down? Am I right in assuming that the tunnel telephone
system is still there for emergencies? If so, I would have thought
it possible to run a reduced service like the Piccadilly "special
timetable" at 5-minute intervals.

Even if running in tunnels is considered dangerous (despite it
being regarded as perfectly safe without radios for a century or
so), why can't a limited service be run on the open sections from
Hammersmith or West Kensington to Richmond and Ealing Broadway?

Hmm, how do you turn round a tube at Hammersmith or West Ken without
going into a tunnel?

You kick the passengers out, run non-stop empty to Green Park and
then open the doors and carry on.

You can reverse at Hammersmith Picc only on the east to west via
siding and West Kensington both ways.

You can in fact reverse at Hammersmith west to east also, by departing e/b
from the w/b platform and carrying passengers through the siding on to the
e/b track. I've done it myself during a weekend closure west of Hammersmith.

You cannot carry on empty in a single track tunnel with a defective
radio unless a second person is also with the train operator or the
OPO alarm still transmits.

Were the OPO alarms working after Connect failed yesterday?

The failure was caused by hardware fault at a connect core site.Radio
calls were still being sent to the wrong talk groups (controller) this
afternoon.

So 2 complete lines stopped running because of one hardware fault in the
radio system. I hope someone high up in LU is asking searching questions
about resilience.

Trains in the open sections did continue in passenger service (at the
east end of the District) if Airwave radios are available. There are
only a limited number on the network though.

Does anyone know what the rules are on National Rail OPO trains if the cab
radio fails?

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Well the whole Connect system is a mess! Nice idea, very poorly
executed at the design stage. The "task force" put to then bring it in
ASAP did a very good job at improving it and making improvements
within the scope of the PFI contract - as well as some that required
variation costs.
Would handing the system over to Airwave make it more reliable I
wonder?

Do you mean LU trains operating over NR metals? The OPO alarm fitted
to CTBC (deadmans) and train radio of "Tube" stock only need to
function in the tunnel sections. LUL train radio rules still apply
when on NR.

If you mean what are the rules on NR trains operating without radios,
then I don't know, except that any NR trains over LUL metals must have
Cab Secure Radio or Connect Radio handsets.

Richard J. wrote:

Does anyone know what the rules are on National Rail OPO trains if the cab
radio fails?

It depends on the TOC, but the basics a

+ Stop and inform the Signaller (generally by use of the Signal Post
Telephone at the next signal)

+ The train is NOT to be moved until instructed

+ Deal with the train in accordance with the TOC's contingency plan

Cheers,

Barry

On 16 Aug, 14:38, chunky munky wrote:
You cannot carry on empty in a single track tunnel with a defective
radio unless a second person is also with the train operator or the
OPO alarm still transmits.

That is the rule, sure. Is there a reason why that is the rule (given
that the publicly stated reason for gibberingly paranoid radio failure
"no trains anywhere" rules is passenger protection)? If so, what is
the reason?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org