Hang on - you can refuse a penalty fare and go to court, can't you?

No. When an inspector finds you with an invalid / no ticket he has
two options.

1. He thinks that you are deliberately avoiding the fare. He will
not issue you with a penalty fare but report your details to the
prosecution office who decide if there is enough evidence to take you
to court.

2. He decides to issue you with a penalty fare. Once he has gone down
this route then you cannot be taken to court for fare evasion as this
would be considered double jepody

So you can see that is either court or penalty fare but not both. In
the penalty fare case you can appeal to an independent adjudicator but
you will not get a criminal record whatever the outcome.

On 30 Oct, 14:38, wrote:
2. He decides to issue you with a penalty fare. *Once he has gone down
this route then you cannot be taken to court for fare evasion as this
would be considered double jepody

And if you refuse to pay? I was under the impression you'd be done for
evading the penalty fare.

U

On Oct 30, 2:44*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 30 Oct, 14:38, wrote:

2. He decides to issue you with a penalty fare. *Once he has gone down
this route then you cannot be taken to court for fare evasion as this
would be considered double jepody

And if you refuse to pay? I was under the impression you'd be done for
evading the penalty fare.

That's my impression too, but not that you'd be faced with an explicit
option on the spot.

wrote:
Hang on - you can refuse a penalty fare and go to court, can't you?

No. When an inspector finds you with an invalid / no ticket he has
two options.

1. He thinks that you are deliberately avoiding the fare. He will
not issue you with a penalty fare but report your details to the
prosecution office who decide if there is enough evidence to take you
to court.

2. He decides to issue you with a penalty fare. Once he has gone down
this route then you cannot be taken to court for fare evasion as this
would be considered double jepody

So you can see that is either court or penalty fare but not both. In
the penalty fare case you can appeal to an independent adjudicator but
you will not get a criminal record whatever the outcome.

You will get a criminal record if it is successfully prosecuted as a
theft offence. It is IIRC when you are prosecuted for breaching an
appropriate byelaw that you don't get a criminal record.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:25:17 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

You will get a criminal record if it is successfully prosecuted as a
theft offence. It is IIRC when you are prosecuted for breaching an
appropriate byelaw that you don't get a criminal record.

Fare-dodging isn't theft, as it doesn't deprive someone of the travel
you have "taken".

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:

Fare-dodging isn't theft, as it doesn't deprive someone of the travel
you have "taken".

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

Richard Adamfi wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:

Fare-dodging isn't theft, as it doesn't deprive someone of the travel
you have "taken".

In England and Wales the illegality is in deliberately obtaining a
service by deception without making the appropriate payment (to use your
own word, "dodging" the fare rather than merely not having the
opportunity to pay it). It was a Theft Act 1968 offence ("obtaining a
pecuniary advantage by deception" but is now a Fraud Act 2006 offence
(which now seems to have at least three different ways of replacing the
older offence but the most direct replacement looks like s.11 "Obtaining
services dishonestly"). There is also the s.3 Theft Act 1978 offence of
"Making off without payment" available for use in appropriate circumstances.

In Scotland theft is a Common Law offence which IMU usually turns upon
the dishonesty of the action(s) in the relevant incident(s).

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

It depends on how you avoid the parking charges.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi
wrote:

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Nov 1, 10:15*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi

wrote:
What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. *It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.


I wouldn't be comfortable with that approach. It's analagous to plea-
bargaining, ie confess early and the punishment is less.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:31:55 +0000, MIG wrote
On Nov 1, 10:15*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi

wrote:
What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. *It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.


I wouldn't be comfortable with that approach. It's analagous to plea-
bargaining, ie confess early and the punishment is less.

It's not really any different to parking fines, there's often a discount for
early payment.