On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 03:14:27 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

They only make sense if one assumes that the authorities don't really
care about fare-evasion, but want to find a way of getting a bit of
extra cash from a set of passengers which partly overlaps with the
fare-evaders.

Certainly on the mainline, though, it only overlaps so far as people
who aren't paying enough attention. A PF cannot be issued for a
ticket that would be valid other than that it's the wrong time of day
- the only thing that can be done there is an excess. It might well
be the same for a route issue as well. That leaves people who travel
beyond their destination, with no ticket or in the wrong class, all of
whom should really be paying more attention.

The only one I'd think needs leniency as well (but doesn't currently
get it) is someone travelling on a season ticket that's one day out of
date from a station with no barriers, as that would be quite easily
done. Perhaps a way to handle that in a sensible world would be to
issue a PF which would be refunded against the renewal of the ticket,
if this was to be done that day.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Oct 30, 9:30*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 03:14:27 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
They only make sense if one assumes that the authorities don't really
care about fare-evasion, but want to find a way of getting a bit of
extra cash from a set of passengers which partly overlaps with the
fare-evaders.

Certainly on the mainline, though, it only overlaps so far as people
who aren't paying enough attention. *A PF cannot be issued for a
ticket that would be valid other than that it's the wrong time of day
- the only thing that can be done there is an excess. *It might well
be the same for a route issue as well. *That leaves people who travel
beyond their destination, with no ticket or in the wrong class, all of
whom should really be paying more attention.

Isn't that because penalty fare areas generally don't correspond to
routes on which the only affordable fares are limited to specific
trains?

In both cases there is a high "fare" which people wouldn't normally
pay, and which they have to pay when caught out, but it'd defined in a
different way.


The only one I'd think needs leniency as well (but doesn't currently
get it) is someone travelling on a season ticket that's one day out of
date from a station with no barriers, as that would be quite easily
done. *Perhaps a way to handle that in a sensible world would be to
issue a PF which would be refunded against the renewal of the ticket,
if this was to be done that day.

I am not in favour of leniency as such, but I'd like to decriminalise
day-to-day travel. Ticketing systems that are a test of ordinary
folks' knowledge of complicated regulations and where ten times as
many staff check tickets as sell them do not do anything for the
competitiveness of the railways.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:20:49 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

Isn't that because penalty fare areas generally don't correspond to
routes on which the only affordable fares are limited to specific
trains?

I'm not so much talking about specific trains, but things like Off
Peak Returns where there can be genuine confusion. I don't think the
same "get-out" applies to AP tickets valid only on the printed train.
Indeed, these *can't* be excessed.

I don't know if it appears to TOC-specific tickets - these also can't
be excessed so possibly not.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 21:30:34 on Thu,
30 Oct 2008, Neil Williams remarked:
They only make sense if one assumes that the authorities don't really
care about fare-evasion, but want to find a way of getting a bit of
extra cash from a set of passengers which partly overlaps with the
fare-evaders.

Certainly on the mainline, though, it only overlaps so far as people
who aren't paying enough attention. A PF cannot be issued for a
ticket that would be valid other than that it's the wrong time of day
- the only thing that can be done there is an excess. It might well
be the same for a route issue as well. That leaves people who travel
beyond their destination, with no ticket or in the wrong class, all of
whom should really be paying more attention.

What about people travelling with the wrong ToC? [eg on a NXEC train
with a Hull-trains-only ticket] Or do you count that as a "Route issue"?

In that sort of case, is the excess going to be any less than the cost
of a whole new ticket?
--
Roland Perry