Neil Williams wrote:

Fare-dodging isn't theft, as it doesn't deprive someone of the travel
you have "taken".

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

Richard Adamfi wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:

Fare-dodging isn't theft, as it doesn't deprive someone of the travel
you have "taken".

In England and Wales the illegality is in deliberately obtaining a
service by deception without making the appropriate payment (to use your
own word, "dodging" the fare rather than merely not having the
opportunity to pay it). It was a Theft Act 1968 offence ("obtaining a
pecuniary advantage by deception" but is now a Fraud Act 2006 offence
(which now seems to have at least three different ways of replacing the
older offence but the most direct replacement looks like s.11 "Obtaining
services dishonestly"). There is also the s.3 Theft Act 1978 offence of
"Making off without payment" available for use in appropriate circumstances.

In Scotland theft is a Common Law offence which IMU usually turns upon
the dishonesty of the action(s) in the relevant incident(s).

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

It depends on how you avoid the parking charges.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi
wrote:

What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Nov 1, 10:15*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi

wrote:
What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. *It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.


I wouldn't be comfortable with that approach. It's analagous to plea-
bargaining, ie confess early and the punishment is less.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:31:55 +0000, MIG wrote
On Nov 1, 10:15*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:51:24 +0000, Richard Adamfi

wrote:
What I find curious is that you can end up with a criminal record for
fare-dodging, but not for avoiding parking charges.

This is true.

I think it would be far more sensible for the Penalty Fare to be
handled in that way. *It might be reasonable, for short-distance
journeys, for it to be £60, increased to £120 if not paid within a
month, or discounted to £40 if paid on the spot or within 7 days, as
the amounts of money involved are comparable.

If it was set at that sort of level, there would be no need to
prosecute as the railway could avoid losing any actual money from fare
dodgers.


I wouldn't be comfortable with that approach. It's analagous to plea-
bargaining, ie confess early and the punishment is less.

It's not really any different to parking fines, there's often a discount for
early payment.