Can someone familiar with ops at Kentish Town explain the current platform
usage?

Are there two platforms normally used for stoppers and two for through
trains and diversions into St Pancras? AIUI there are junctions both north
and south of the station so trains to St Pancras LL can use either route?

I was wondering how they will deal with the trains that terminate at Kentish
Town, (vice Blackfriars under KO0). For instance would the signalling allow
all through trains to use the outer platforms, leaving the middle platforms
(2 and 3) for trains terminating and reversing?

Will the Kentish Town platforms remain limited to 8 car under the full
Thameslink improvements - I see there is a fair amount of lengthening now
happening at stations northwards to Elstree...

TIA Paul S

On Nov 16, 5:27*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Can someone familiar with ops at Kentish Town explain the current platform
usage?

Are there two platforms normally used for stoppers and two for through
trains and diversions into St Pancras? *AIUI there are junctions both north
and south of the station so trains to St Pancras LL can use either route?

From Quail and also personal observations:

There are two platforms on the TL line (1&2) which are shown as being
reversible on Quail. Platform 3 is the other side of 2, forming an
island, and is designated Up and Down Relief. It can be accessed from
the TL line. Platform 4 (Up and Down Slow) can only be accessed from
St Pancras. There are no platforms on the fast lines.


I was wondering how they will deal with the trains that terminate at Kentish
Town, (vice Blackfriars under KO0). *For instance would the signalling allow
all through trains to use the outer platforms, leaving the middle platforms
(2 and 3) for trains terminating and reversing?

From Quail and signal locations, I would imagine that terminating
trains will use 3, as this does not obstruct the TL lines. This is not
regularly used by passenger trains at present. With 8 trains per hour
in each direction, I imagine the operating people will not want trains
blocking the northbound TL line for any length of time. Trains from
the south cannot arrive at 1.


Will the Kentish Town platforms remain limited to 8 car under the full
Thameslink improvements - I see there is a fair amount of lengthening now
happening at stations northwards to Elstree...


Don't know - the site is very space constrained so platform extensions
could be difficult. Again according to Quail, 2 and 3 are 10 cars long
anyway, so SDO may be sufficient. Don't know if that would be
acceptable for 1, which is 8 car.

HTH.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:27:39 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Can someone familiar with ops at Kentish Town explain the current platform
usage?

Are there two platforms normally used for stoppers and two for through
trains and diversions into St Pancras? AIUI there are junctions both north
and south of the station so trains to St Pancras LL can use either route?

All trains to/from StPLL normally use the Eastern platforms 1 and 2)
AFAIK. 3 and 4 are only used by empty stock moves to/from both StPs
and for FCC casualities. (Weekend diversions are another matter.)

I was wondering how they will deal with the trains that terminate at Kentish
Town, (vice Blackfriars under KO0). For instance would the signalling allow
all through trains to use the outer platforms, leaving the middle platforms
(2 and 3) for trains terminating and reversing?

I dunno about plans but the signalling allows this, and most other
variations.

Will the Kentish Town platforms remain limited to 8 car under the full
Thameslink improvements - I see there is a fair amount of lengthening now
happening at stations northwards to Elstree...

It is accepted that extending the platforms will not be possible, due
to overbridges at each end of the station.
--
Peter Lawrence

On Nov 16, 6:34 pm, wrote:

Will the Kentish Town platforms remain limited to 8 car under the full
Thameslink improvements - I see there is a fair amount of lengthening now
happening at stations northwards to Elstree...

Don't know - the site is very space constrained so platform extensions
could be difficult. Again according to Quail, 2 and 3 are 10 cars long
anyway, so SDO may be sufficient. Don't know if that would be
acceptable for 1, which is 8 car.


Kentish Town will remain 8 car platforms under the full and final
scheme.

There are no plans to convert to it to 12 car platforms. The bridges
and structures at either end of the station are too substantial to
alter. This was known in some internal documents - but has since been
confirmed, and placed in the FAQ of the thameslink program web site
after I prompted them to do so:

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk...ex#question_42

It does prove they are listening to public questions ... and producing
an answer - even though it may not be the answer that everyone wants.

In a more detailed response to myself I asked about possible SDO
because my thoughts were if Kentish Town is limited permanently to
8car how much impact will that have overall i.e. will there still be 4
TPH 8car trains in the long term. They replied that SDO is not ruled
out ... but no decision has been made on this yet ... and IMHO does
not need to be made for some time.

--
Nick

On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "Peter Lawrence" wrote:


On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:27:39 -0000, "Paul Scott"

I was wondering how they will deal with the trains that terminate at Kentish
Town, (vice Blackfriars under KO0). For instance would the signalling allow
all through trains to use the outer platforms, leaving the middle platforms
(2 and 3) for trains terminating and reversing?


I dunno about plans but the signalling allows this, and most other
variations.


Platform 1 & 2 (''Up Moorgate'' and ''Down Moorgate;; lines) are
reversible but only from the north i.e. a southbound train can be
turned back northwards so that does not hrlp this answer.

Platform 4 (''Up & Down Slow'') is fully reversible throughout but
from the south is only accessable to/from SP high level so again is of
no help.

Platform 3 (''Up & Down Releif'') is fully reversible throughout and
can accommodate reversing trains to/from both directions. From the
south end it leads to what is known as Dock Junction North on the the
Moorgate lines.

The only possible question is using this creates conflicting moves as
SB trains will have to cross the Down Moorgate. Do we know yet of
Kentish Town terminators are turning back there or are running ECS and
turning back in Cricklewood sidings ? There are two routes from
Cricklewood into the sidings ... north and south of the platforms ...
keeping all options open would suggest why such moves would not call
at Cricklewood beyond Kentish Town.


The Kentish Town Up & Down Releif used to be used a lot more for ECS
when units from Selhurst used to run ECS to/from Moorgate peak trains
but since stabling has shifted to Cricklewood and increased at Bedford
is much less used ... there is only one SX move in the current
workings. Even that one does not appear to be wholly necessary and
might be simply a ''rusty rail'' move to keep the route activated.


The Up & Down Relief is sometimes used to overtake Up trains when the
''flyer'' is late getting to pass the ''metro''. As you know, all
''flyers'' have to overtake all ''metros'' somewhere between Radlett
Junctions and West Hampstead. Normally the the metro is USL all the
way with the flyer on USL until either Harpenden Junction or Radlett
Junction where it switches to the UFL and back to USL at WHD South Jn.
If the flyer is late enough but can still overtake the metro at or
around Kentish Town the normal procedure (from my observation) is that
the *metro* is re-routed through Kentish Town platform 3 and does its
station call there while the flyer takes its booked route across WHD
South Junction thus overtaking by using platform 1.

) from the track bashing point of view that is most irritating -
use of the Dock Junction North route is extremely rare - and since
you never know when this will occur, and I use the flyers from Luton,
I am on the normally routed train and see the diverted train, but can
do nothing about it (

--
Nick

On 17 Nov, 07:03, D7666 wrote:

On Nov 16, 6:34 pm, wrote:

Will the Kentish Town platforms remain limited to 8 car under the full
Thameslink improvements - I see there is a fair amount of lengthening now
happening at stations northwards to Elstree...

Don't know - the site is very space constrained so platform extensions
could be difficult. Again according to Quail, 2 and 3 are 10 cars long
anyway, so SDO may be sufficient. Don't know if that would be
acceptable for 1, which is 8 car.

Kentish Town will remain 8 car platforms under the full and final
scheme.

There are no plans to convert to it to 12 car platforms. The bridges
and structures at either end of the station are too substantial to
alter. This was known in some internal documents - but has since been
confirmed, and placed in the FAQ of the thameslink program web site
after I prompted them to do so:

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk...es/public_inde...

It does prove they are listening to public questions ... and producing
an answer - even though it may not be the answer that everyone wants.


From that answer...

quote
Brighton to Bedford [not 'Thameslink route'] trains rarely call at
Kentish Town and Cricklewood other than in the late evening or early
morning. Instead they are served by the Wimbledon loop trains that
will remain a maximum eight carriages in length due to the road bridge
at Tulse Hill and complex track layouts near other station platforms.
/quote

I don't understand what the 'not Thameslink route' bit in square
brackets is supposed to mean?

In a more detailed response to myself I asked about possible SDO
because my thoughts were if Kentish Town is limited permanently to
8car how much impact will that have overall i.e. will there still be 4
TPH 8car trains in the long term. They replied that SDO is not ruled
out ... but no decision has been made on this yet ... and IMHO does
not need to be made for some time.


As we know the plan is for the (principal) suburban Thameslink service
south of the Thames to switch from being the Wimbledon loop service to
being an Orpington or Sevenoaks service via the Catford loop (i.e.
Peckham Rye). So, how easy would it be to sort this route out for 12
car trains?

If they are to remain 8 car services then that means there will be a
mix of 8 and 12 car trains going through the central section, which I
suppose is perhaps less than ideal. Then again it would be wasteful
providing 12 car trains on a service to Sevenoaks/ Orpington which
doesn't need it.

Given that Kentish Town and Cricklewood are only normally served by 8
car Wimbledon loop (to be Sevenoaks/ Orpington) services, I don't
understand why there is a specific interest in whether they are
getting platform extensions that they would appear not to need?.

On Nov 17, 9:06 am, Mizter T wrote:

From that answer...

quote
Brighton to Bedford [not 'Thameslink route'] trains rarely call at
Kentish Town and Cricklewood other than in the late evening or early
morning. Instead they are served by the Wimbledon loop trains that
will remain a maximum eight carriages in length due to the road bridge
at Tulse Hill and complex track layouts near other station platforms.
/quote

I don't understand what the 'not Thameslink route' bit in square
brackets is supposed to mean?

Yes ... in their reply to me they used the same words ... but
amazingly to my surprise they followed this up without me promptng
them 2/3 days later with a correction saying that is not what they
meant ... but were supposed to be referring Brighton/Bedford trains at
that point. It is actually clear what they meant as they refer to
Wimbledon loop trains later on.



In a more detailed response to myself I asked about possible SDO
because my thoughts were if Kentish Town is limited permanently to
8car how much impact will that have overall i.e. will there still be 4
TPH 8car trains in the long term. They replied that SDO is not ruled
out ... but no decision has been made on this yet ... and IMHO does
not need to be made for some time.

As we know the plan is for the (principal) suburban Thameslink service
south of the Thames to switch from being the Wimbledon loop service to
being an Orpington or Sevenoaks service via the Catford loop (i.e.
Peckham Rye). So, how easy would it be to sort this route out for 12
car trains?


The switching of the Loop trains away from TL core is not yet decided.
This is proposed in one of the RUS (Brighton? South London? ) - it is
not a TLprogramme suggestion and loop trains remain in their version
of the 2015 network map.

True, RUS proposals have a habit of turning out to be correct, and it
seems to me the RUS reasoning is valid, but at the moment, but in the
mean time it is not certain, again, read the FAQ at

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk...ex#question_41


Given that Kentish Town and Cricklewood are only normally served by 8
car Wimbledon loop (to be Sevenoaks/ Orpington) services, I don't
understand why there is a specific interest in whether they are
getting platform extensions that they would appear not to need?.

Because if the loop trains *are* diverted away it would impose a cap
on any service that does call at Kentish Town unless SDO is
implemented. And it would be a permanent cap, way into long term
future past 2015 and way beyond. ((I assume that if the replace
Cricklewood by new Brent Cross idea does not go ahead then the
existing Criclewood would be extended to 12car.))

Leaving just Kentish Town at 8car north of Thames without SDO would
have a very great impact on capacity on the whole core route e.g. if
*all* peak hour 24 TPH trains could otherwise be 12car, the effect
alone of 4 TPH 8car (the current Kentish Town pattern but no matter
where it comes from) compared with all 12 car is an 11% reduction
through the core - 24x12=288; (20*12)+(4*8)=256; 256/288=0.888888etc.
It has a much bigger impact on the Midland side when you do that sum
for only Midland trains after remoiving GN-bound trains.

In turn, once one 8car station has been conceded, the whitehall bean
counting mandarins can move in and suggest cost cutting by allowing
other 8car station to be kept.

Thus it is very important to understand this issue, and very important
they get it right.

--
Nick

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

As we know the plan is for the (principal) suburban Thameslink service
south of the Thames to switch from being the Wimbledon loop service to
being an Orpington or Sevenoaks service via the Catford loop (i.e.
Peckham Rye). So, how easy would it be to sort this route out for 12
car trains?

If they are to remain 8 car services then that means there will be a
mix of 8 and 12 car trains going through the central section, which I
suppose is perhaps less than ideal. Then again it would be wasteful
providing 12 car trains on a service to Sevenoaks/ Orpington which
doesn't need it.

Given that Kentish Town and Cricklewood are only normally served by 8
car Wimbledon loop (to be Sevenoaks/ Orpington) services, I don't
understand why there is a specific interest in whether they are
getting platform extensions that they would appear not to need?.

The 'flow diagram' for Key Output 2 in the South London RUS suggests there
will be a 6tph '8 car' service through the core, 2 each from Orpington,
Sevenoaks, and Maidstone East.

Would a 6tph service at Kentish Town be considered adequate?

Figure 9.5 page 117 of: http://tinyurl.com/2k29zc

It's a pity there isn't a matching level of detail yet for 'Thameslink
north' as the East Midlands RUS is still in preparation, expected for
consultation in spring 2009 and publication in the summer.

However at least the ECML RUS does confirm that the 8 tph off the ECML link
will all be 12 carriages long, it just seems a bit unsure if they will be
existing outer or inner suburban services.

Paul S

"D7666" wrote

through the core - 24x12=288; (20*12)+(4*8)=256; 256/288=0.888888etc.

ITYF it should be 272, so a reduction of a little over 5%.

Thus it is very important to understand this issue, and very important
they get it right.

Exactly.

The Catford Loop stopping service only gets 2 tph in the evening peak (plus
one extra shoulder peak train), so it will be difficult to justify the cost
of extending platforms at these stations, especially as Elephant & Castle,
Peckham Rye, and Bellingham (if the sidings are retained) look difficult to
extend to full 12 car.

Peter

On Nov 17, 11:58 am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

through the core - 24x12=288; (20*12)+(4*8)=256; 256/288=0.888888etc.

ITYF it should be 272, so a reduction of a little over 5%.

Oh yes, sorry, added the 16 to 240 instead of taking it off the 288
d'oh.


Thus it is very important to understand this issue, and very important
they get it right.

Exactly.


Having just tripped over myself there ) even 5-6% in the core is
still significant, and it still gets to be bigger when looking only at
Midland services.

--
Nick