Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 23 Nov, 18:54, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote:
Did I dream this, or is there currently talk of re-instating the Bakerloo
service to WJ?

In short, several years ago when the takeover of Silverlink/London
Overground by TfL was originally being planned, TfL proposed a major
service reconfiguration that excluded reextending the Bakerloo to
Watford and withdrawing the London Overground service so the trains
could be used elsewhere.

Evidently someone looked at the costs of doing this and decided it
wasn't worth the effort (extra Bakerloo stock, reinstating fourth
rail, signalling, etc) and it's no longer on the table. If it does
happen it'll be tied to the Bakerloo Line upgrade that's due in about
10 years time (resignalling, all new stock, etc), after all the other
tube lines have been upgraded.

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 23 Nov, 19:46, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Nov, 18:54, "Jonathan Morton"

wrote:
Did I dream this, or is there currently talk of re-instating the Bakerloo
service to WJ?

In short, several years ago when the takeover of Silverlink/London
Overground by TfL was originally being planned, TfL proposed a major
service reconfiguration that excluded reextending the Bakerloo to
Watford and withdrawing the London Overground service so the trains
could be used elsewhere.

Evidently someone looked at the costs of doing this and decided it
wasn't worth the effort (extra Bakerloo stock, reinstating fourth
rail, signalling, etc) and it's no longer on the table. If it does
happen it'll be tied to the Bakerloo Line upgrade that's due in about
10 years time (resignalling, all new stock, etc), after all the other
tube lines have been upgraded.


You say "it's no longer on the table" but then "If it does happen
[...]". I've no desire to get into tortured metaphors about what
constitutes whether something is on or off the table, I'm just
interested in where things stand on this idea.

My impression of it was that of a somewhat vague long term
aspirational idea that had been floated a few years ago, one on which
no decision needed to be made until the Bakerloo upgrade but one that
nonetheless floated around for a while in the background and perhaps
is indeed still floating around there somewhere. You seem to sense
that it's an idea that has come and gone.

I guess that the recent temporary service reconfiguration on the NLL
and DC lines has at least provided a bit of raw data about travelling
patterns and whether the service could be withdrawn from Euston,
whether it would be workable and even desirable or not, what
passengers thought about it etc etc.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:46:41 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

In short, several years ago when the takeover of Silverlink/London
Overground by TfL was originally being planned, TfL proposed a major
service reconfiguration that excluded reextending the Bakerloo to
Watford and withdrawing the London Overground service so the trains
could be used elsewhere.

I do hope the Euston services stay. It's very nice that the
mid-distance commuter services from Euston are once again not rammed
full of passengers travelling to local stations around Harrow who were
taking them to there then changing, and (while LM are planning
12-car-everything-more-or-less from the next TT, having been allowed
to retain 7 321s permanently) it isn't a good use of stock to extend
those trains just to provide for a very short-distance market.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 23 Nov, 22:18, Mizter T wrote:
You say "it's no longer on the table" but then "If it does happen
[...]". I've no desire to get into tortured metaphors about what
constitutes whether something is on or off the table, I'm just
interested in where things stand on this idea.

In 2010/11-ish, they'll have finished the East London Line to Highbury
and the various other upgrading of the NLL and WLL, and they'll be
introducing a new service pattern. If you digging online you'll find
letters between TfL and the DfT (or SRA or whoever it was) from a few
years back, arguing over what the service pattern should be. TfL were
actively pushing for the Bakerloo to Watford plan at this time. So it
*was* a near term ambition at one point.

If you look at what they've since applied for permission to run, it
looks like this:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...e-upgrade.html

i.e. No changes to the Watford service.

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

My impression of it was that of a somewhat vague long term
aspirational idea that had been floated a few years ago, one on which
no decision needed to be made until the Bakerloo upgrade but one that
nonetheless floated around for a while in the background and perhaps
is indeed still floating around there somewhere. You seem to sense
that it's an idea that has come and gone.

I thought the plan was to increase the Bakerloo fleet by redeploying
1972TS recovered from the Victoria Line after the new stock enters service
there. That was a bit more definite than you suggest.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 23 Nov, 22:57, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:46:41 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

In short, several years ago when the takeover of Silverlink/London
Overground by TfL was originally being planned, TfL proposed a major
service reconfiguration that excluded reextending the Bakerloo to
Watford and withdrawing the London Overground service so the trains
could be used elsewhere.

I do hope the Euston services stay. *It's very nice that the
mid-distance commuter services from Euston are once again not rammed
full of passengers travelling to local stations around Harrow who were
taking them to there then changing, and (while LM are planning
12-car-everything-more-or-less from the next TT, having been allowed
to retain 7 321s permanently) it isn't a good use of stock to extend
those trains just to provide for a very short-distance market.


I've been intending on asking about how you perceive things went with
regards to LO pax switching to LM trains in and out of Euston from
Harrow, Bletchley and Watford Jn now that the whole exercise is over -
I take it from your comments that you have noticed loadings noticeably
for these journeys decrease since things got back to normal a week
ago. That said I dare say that "rammed full of [local] passengers"
might be something of an exaggeration, given that I understand that
LM's commuter trains are noted for being rather tranquil affairs where
nearly everyone gets a seat!

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:04:24 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

I've been intending on asking about how you perceive things went with
regards to LO pax switching to LM trains in and out of Euston from
Harrow, Bletchley and Watford Jn now that the whole exercise is over -
I take it from your comments that you have noticed loadings noticeably
for these journeys decrease since things got back to normal a week
ago. That said I dare say that "rammed full of [local] passengers"
might be something of an exaggeration, given that I understand that
LM's commuter trains are noted for being rather tranquil affairs where
nearly everyone gets a seat!

True :)

The effect on Monday was noticeable - there were free seats on the
1824 in the front coach (no middles-of-3 taken at all, I think),
whereas prior to that there was usually a small standing load.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 24 Nov, 06:24, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:04:24 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
I've been intending on asking about how you perceive things went with
regards to LO pax switching to LM trains in and out of Euston from
Harrow, Bletchley and Watford Jn now that the whole exercise is over -
I take it from your comments that you have noticed loadings noticeably
for these journeys decrease since things got back to normal a week
ago. That said I dare say that "rammed full of [local] passengers"
might be something of an exaggeration, given that I understand that
LM's commuter trains are noted for being rather tranquil affairs where
nearly everyone gets a seat!

(Argh - what a tortuous paragraph I managed to construct!)


True :)

The effect on Monday was noticeable - there were free seats on the
1824 in the front coach (no middles-of-3 taken at all, I think),
whereas prior to that there was usually a small standing load.


FWIW in the past I had an open mind on the issue but I think I've now
shifted over to being of the opinion that withdrawing local trains to
and from Euston on a permanent basis ain't really on - the notion that
one simply couldn't catch a local train service from Euston just seems
rather absurd (esp having actually experienced it!). The Bakerloo line
into central London isn't really close enough to being a similar route
to act as a replacement for the DC lines service.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 23, 7:46 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
Evidently someone looked at the costs of doing this and decided it
wasn't worth the effort (extra Bakerloo stock, reinstating fourth
rail, signalling, etc) and it's no longer on the table. If it does

I don't see why it should cost much at all. The line is in constant
use already - its not as if its been mothballed so the signalling
should all be working fine. All they'll need to do is replace the 4th
rail and put a few LU stickers on the walls of the stations. As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone? Sounds more like a case of they can't be arsed.

B2003

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 24 Nov, 09:37, Boltar wrote:
I don't see why it should cost much at all. The line is in constant
use already - its not as if its been mothballed so the signalling
should all be working fine. All they'll need to do is replace the 4th
rail and put a few LU stickers on the walls of the stations.

Replacing the fourth rail isn't going to be cheap. You also have stuff
like installing one-person-operation equipment (Bakerloo trains have
lost their guards since the line closed. London Overground hasn't) and
communication systems and so on.

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.

Sounds more like a case of they can't be arsed.

"Too expensive" and "poor cost/benefit ratio" and "can't be arsed" are
pretty much the same thing.

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

Replacing the fourth rail isn't going to be cheap. You also have stuff
like installing one-person-operation equipment (Bakerloo trains have
lost their guards since the line closed. London Overground hasn't) and
communication systems and so on.

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.

Is a fourth rail really necessary out that way, however? I always understood
that they were really needed only for the tub sections of the tube, to help
power flow into the motors. I heard this on the Island Line, where 38 stock
operates only with a 3rd rail.

Also, what sort of equipment would you need to ensure safe one-man
operation? Are the stop arms still working?

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:20:47 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

On 24 Nov, 09:37, Boltar wrote:
I don't see why it should cost much at all. The line is in constant
use already - its not as if its been mothballed so the signalling
should all be working fine. All they'll need to do is replace the 4th
rail and put a few LU stickers on the walls of the stations.

Replacing the fourth rail isn't going to be cheap. You also have stuff
like installing one-person-operation equipment (Bakerloo trains have
lost their guards since the line closed. London Overground hasn't) and
communication systems and so on.

The DC line has been OPO since not long after 313s were introduced.

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.

Sounds more like a case of they can't be arsed.

"Too expensive" and "poor cost/benefit ratio" and "can't be arsed" are
pretty much the same thing.

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:30:14 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

FWIW in the past I had an open mind on the issue but I think I've now
shifted over to being of the opinion that withdrawing local trains to
and from Euston on a permanent basis ain't really on - the notion that
one simply couldn't catch a local train service from Euston just seems
rather absurd (esp having actually experienced it!). The Bakerloo line
into central London isn't really close enough to being a similar route
to act as a replacement for the DC lines service.

I guess not, as LO is proving as popular as ever. Its absence has not
prevented it drawing the crowds back - even if they've only migrated
from as far as platform 8.

It's a good job it's back, as due to the effective cancellation[1] of
the 1804 slow this evening, the 1824 was full and standing. With the
LO local passengers, people (possibly long-distance travellers) would
have been left behind.

From 12 Dec (ish), the problem would be accentuated further, as the
1824 will be a through service to Crewe, and the last train serving
Atherstone, and the last LM one (with the ridiculously cheap[2] fares)
serving Nuneaton etc.

[1] Run fast to MKC only due to a delay, presumably so it got a free
run on the slows in front of the 1824 without delaying it. It would,
IMO, have made sense to stop it at Cheddington (if anyone wanted it)
and Bletchley, though, as it'd have seriously reduced the load on the
1824. Or to have attached 4 of its 8 cars onto the 1824 and removed
them at Bletchley.

[2] It is now cheaper to buy a super off-peak return from MKC to
Stafford (a stupidly cheap 11 quid) than a CDR to Brum (14 ish).
Useful to know, especially on a weekend when both are valid all day.
I suspect these are introductory fares, but they are *bloody* cheap
while they last. Over 10 years ago Liverpool-London return booked in
advance was 19 quid. Now you can have a LM walk-up return for a
paltry 16!

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:20:47 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

London Overground hasn't

Does the Euston-Watford service have guards? I was almost certain it
was DOO.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 24, 10:39 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

London Overground hasn't

Does the Euston-Watford service have guards? I was almost certain it
was DOO.

Off the top of my head I thought all Silverlink 313s were crew
operated so assume LO inherited this. I might be wrong.

--
Nick

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.


IIRC there were only 4 more units involved when services ran to
Watford if you simply took the contemporary services beforer and after
when Watford was axed.

--
Nick

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:42:20 -0800 (PST), D7666
wrote:

Off the top of my head I thought all Silverlink 313s were crew
operated so assume LO inherited this. I might be wrong.

I was pretty sure the Euston-Watford was an exception to this. I've
never seen a guard on one - but I'll look tomorrow if I think on.

DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that route.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 24, 10:50 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote


DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that route.


Watford / Snorbens has got mirrors but the 321 is crewed.

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

I'm now trying to think where I have been DOO where there are no
cameras.

--
Nick

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 24, 11:11*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 24, 10:50 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote

DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that route.

Watford / Snorbens has got mirrors but the 321 is crewed.

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

I'm now trying to think where I have been DOO where there are no
cameras.


I seem to recall that the former Silverlink AC routes (i.e. Euston -
Northampton and Watford - St. Albans) are driver / guard operated as
the DOO mirror positions were surveyed for class 317s and needed to be
repositioned / resurveyed for use by 321s. I think that this was due
to the 317s having a side cab window, which the 321s lack (the door
window being further back than the 317 cab window). This work was
never done and so 321s remain crew operated. Several platforms have
lost their mirrors during the WCML rebuilding / platform lengthening.

CCTV is not necessary, as the 313s on the Watford - Euston line don't
use it at all stations. For example, see this picture at Kenton:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:K...northbound.JPG

where you can see the Southbound DOO mirror (at the 3 car stop), but
no CCTV monitor. I think that CCTV is only required where the platform
is curved (or maybe on the 'wrong' side of the train). Kenton does
have CCTV at the platform ends, for use by the Bakerloo trains.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:47:34 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

On Nov 24, 11:11*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 24, 10:50 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote

DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that route.

Watford / Snorbens has got mirrors but the 321 is crewed.

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

I'm now trying to think where I have been DOO where there are no
cameras.


I seem to recall that the former Silverlink AC routes (i.e. Euston -
Northampton and Watford - St. Albans) are driver / guard operated as
the DOO mirror positions were surveyed for class 317s and needed to be
repositioned / resurveyed for use by 321s. I think that this was due
to the 317s having a side cab window, which the 321s lack (the door
window being further back than the 317 cab window). This work was
never done and so 321s remain crew operated. Several platforms have
lost their mirrors during the WCML rebuilding / platform lengthening.

The second man is there to sell the tickets on the Stahlbahns line,
isn't he ?

CCTV is not necessary, as the 313s on the Watford - Euston line don't
use it at all stations. For example, see this picture at Kenton:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:K...northbound.JPG

where you can see the Southbound DOO mirror (at the 3 car stop), but
no CCTV monitor. I think that CCTV is only required where the platform
is curved (or maybe on the 'wrong' side of the train). Kenton does
have CCTV at the platform ends, for use by the Bakerloo trains.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:32:20 -0000, wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

Replacing the fourth rail isn't going to be cheap. You also have stuff
like installing one-person-operation equipment (Bakerloo trains have
lost their guards since the line closed. London Overground hasn't) and
communication systems and so on.

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.

Is a fourth rail really necessary out that way, however?

It is if you want the same train to work both there and on the
Underground.

I always understood
that they were really needed only for the tub sections of the tube, to help
power flow into the motors.

No the LU 4-rail power supply is intended to keep the traction current
within the two conductor rails and not find its way back via other
bits of metal with consequent damage.

I heard this on the Island Line, where 38 stock operates only with a 3rd rail.

No tube tunnels or aforementioned metalwork to worry about.

Also, what sort of equipment would you need to ensure safe one-man
operation? Are the stop arms still working?

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:32:20 -0000 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Is a fourth rail really necessary out that way, however? I always understood
that they were really needed only for the tub sections of the tube, to help
power flow into the motors. I heard this on the Island Line, where 38 stock
operates only with a 3rd rail.

It operates there after being modified to allow the traction supply
to travel via the running rails. Heavy electric currents through
bearings is not a good combination, hence the modification.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

D7666 wrote:


I'm now trying to think where I have been DOO where there are no
cameras.

There's Gipsy Hill on Southern. That has mirrors but no cameras.

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 25 Nov, 09:06, "solar penguin"
wrote:
There's Gipsy Hill on Southern. *That has mirrors but no cameras.

When three car trains run on the Northern City they stop halfway along
the northbound platform at Highbury & Islington, where there are no
cameras or mirrors. The trains are definitely OPO and there's no
platform dispatcher either.

(Various other FCC stations have mirrors only, where the platforms are
straight enough)

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

In article
,
(D7666) wrote:

On Nov 24, 10:50 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote

DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that
route.

Watford / Snorbens has got mirrors but the 321 is crewed.

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

I'm now trying to think where I have been DOO where there are no
cameras.

Letchworth for starters. FCC is a DOO railway and most of the Cambridge
line only has mirrors.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

In article
,
(D7666) wrote:

As for
extra stock - where did it all go when the line was cut back to
wealdstone?

It still had 1959 and 1938 stock back then, so the answer is either
for scrap or the Isle of Wight.

IIRC there were only 4 more units involved when services ran to
Watford if you simply took the contemporary services beforer and after
when Watford was axed.

There were certainly only four trains each way a day latterly, including
when we did the Underground trip in 1970. I suppose they were all entering
or leaving service from or to Croxley Depot?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

"Mr Thant" wrote

When three car trains run on the Northern City they stop halfway along
the northbound platform at Highbury & Islington, where there are no
cameras or mirrors. The trains are definitely OPO and there's no
platform dispatcher either.

Are they DOO now? When DOO started on the GN inner suburbans they took on a
guard between Drayton Park and Moorgate.

Peter

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

"Peter Masson" wrote...
When three car trains run on the Northern City they stop halfway along
the northbound platform at Highbury & Islington, where there are no
cameras or mirrors. The trains are definitely OPO and there's no
platform dispatcher either.
Are they DOO now? When DOO started on the GN inner suburbans they took on
a
guard between Drayton Park and Moorgate.

They've been DOO for a good while now; Drayton park has (?had) mirrors
halfway up the platofrm when they lost the second man.

Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing them at Highbury - and I
don't recall ever seeing a dispatcher in the off-peak when three car trains
are still used.
--

Andrew

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 25 Nov, 12:57, "Peter Masson" wrote:
Are they DOO now? When DOO started on the GN inner suburbans they took on a
guard between Drayton Park and Moorgate.

They have new-ish LCD CCTV monitors for the driver embedded into the
tunnel walls at most stations, with "open doors other side" signs. So
if they do carry a guard, there's not a lot for them to do. I can't
say I've ever seen a guard, but then I haven't been looking.

U

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

DOO

CCTV

mirrors


OK, I stand corrected on the DOO mirror / CCTV issue.

However, a question then, in our 21st HSE nazi state would they not
required CCTV for any new DOO implementation ? Perhaps I have read
this somewhere any maybe thats where I got the idea from ?

--
Nick

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

D7666 wrote:
DOO

CCTV

mirrors


OK, I stand corrected on the DOO mirror / CCTV issue.

However, a question then, in our 21st HSE nazi state would they not
required CCTV for any new DOO implementation ? Perhaps I have read
this somewhere any maybe thats where I got the idea from ?

Surely it would depend on the length of the train? A mirror might be
perfectly acceptable for a 2- or 3-car train, but not for 6 or 8 cars.

By the way, please don't use the word 'nazi' to describe something that's
just irritating. It's gratuitous exaggeration, doesn't help your argument,
and devalues the horrors of the real Nazis.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On 25 Nov, 14:05, "Richard J." wrote:

Surely it would depend on the length of the train? *A mirror might be
perfectly acceptable for a 2- or 3-car train, but not for 6 or 8 cars.

Might it be easier to fit CCTV to the train rather than the platform?
I think some of the Electrostars have this facility?

Neil

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...


SNIP
[1] Run fast to MKC only due to a delay, presumably so it got a free
run on the slows in front of the 1824 without delaying it. It would,
IMO, have made sense to stop it at Cheddington (if anyone wanted it)
and Bletchley, though, as it'd have seriously reduced the load on the
1824. Or to have attached 4 of its 8 cars onto the 1824 and removed
them at Bletchley.

Or simply just switch the set, and the platforms accordingly...

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 25, 2:05 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
By the way, please don't use the word 'nazi' to describe something that's
just irritating. It's gratuitous exaggeration, doesn't help your argument,
and devalues the horrors of the real Nazis.

Lighten up. Its a common colloquialism and the nazis are just another
part history for anyone under the age of 63.

B2003

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

"Boltar" wrote
Lighten up. Its a common colloquialism and the nazis are just another
part history for anyone under the age of 63.

Only *ignorant* people under 63.
And if it's just another part of history, then why bring it up and prove
your ignorance?
--
Andrew
seo2seo.com
sick-site-syndrome.com

"When 'Do no Evil' has been understood, then learn the harder, braver rule,
Do Good." ~ Arthur Guiterman

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:47:34 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

On Nov 24, 11:11*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 24, 10:50 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote

DOO mirrors are certainly fitted at all the stations on that route.

Watford / Snorbens has got mirrors but the 321 is crewed.

I seem to recall that the former Silverlink AC routes (i.e. Euston -
Northampton and Watford - St. Albans) are driver / guard operated as
the DOO mirror positions were surveyed for class 317s and needed to be
repositioned / resurveyed for use by 321s. I think that this was due to
the 317s having a side cab window, which the 321s lack (the door window
being further back than the 317 cab window). This work was never done
and so 321s remain crew operated. Several platforms have lost their
mirrors during the WCML rebuilding / platform lengthening.

The second man is there to sell the tickets on the Stahlbahns line,
isn't he ?

He is. And he's a very nice man!

tom

--
The literature is filled with bizarre occurrances for which we have
no explanation

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 25, 5:03 pm, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
"Boltar" wrote

Lighten up. Its a common colloquialism and the nazis are just another
part history for anyone under the age of 63.

Only *ignorant* people under 63.
And if it's just another part of history, then why bring it up and prove
your ignorance?

Oh give it a rest FFS. The nazis weren't the first genocidal state in
history and they won't be the last. Making out there were some sort of
special case is just BS. Even in the 20th century Stalin persecuted
and murdered far more people than hitler managed yet no one objects
the the word "stalinist" being used. The Khmer Rouge are estimated to
have murdered a 5th of the total population of Cambodia and god knows
what the death toll in Rwanda is up to these days.

B2003

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 25, 5:03 pm, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
And if it's just another part of history, then why bring it up and prove
your ignorance?

Btw , I didn't bring it up. Might help if you followed the thread.

B2003

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

The second man is there to sell the tickets on the Stahlbahns line,
isn't he ?


Yes indeed he does sell tickets but from 2 recent trips on the line
seemed to me the guard was doing more than commercial duties and doing
the traditional gurads role.

--
Nick

Bakerloo Line beyond Harrow & Wealdstone
 

On Nov 25, 4:57 pm, Boltar wrote:


On Nov 25, 2:05 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
By the way, please don't use the word 'nazi' to describe something that's
just irritating. It's gratuitous exaggeration, doesn't help your argument,
and devalues the horrors of the real Nazis.

Lighten up. Its a common colloquialism

Indeed.

If one goes down the road of censorship i.e. by attempting to prevent
the use of certain words then [a] one is guilty of the same
totalitarianism of the subject that started this digression [b] one
will ended up not using any adjectives in case someone somewhere at
sometime did something to somebody in history.

--
Nick